Too easy once you know mechanics?

[henrywiddas]

I've been on Reddit before this thread and it was all about how easy to get into it was but still deep, then another thread on steam had a dozen players say it was dumbed down to iPad gaming levels, and another steam thread showed how HoI3 veterans found it dumbed down while newbies found it too complicated so I'm guessing it's pitched somewhere in the middle.

My big concern though is that once the mechanics are mastered, this game sounds like it's too easy. possibly due to very bad AI people have been conquering Western Europe and North America from playing Mexico on their first ever go.

Also, Poland seems to be crushing Germany easily in quite a few official and user reviews I've read on metacritic etc again from players' first few hours of playing the game. a much smaller amount of reviewers are saying game is too hard.

I can't find any threads at all on the difficulty levels available but if and when I get this I may play on hard mode and go in blind without tutorial. with me having no experience of hearts of iron games, that should be fun, painfully learning from my mistakes... Any views on difficulty level I'd be keen to hear

[Zorlond]

Originally posted by Mountain Man:

It's popular these days to dismiss any new game as "casual". It's how your earn your hardcore cred. All the cool kids are doing it.

You're the first person in this thread to even mention 'casual'. The rest of us are just saying it's easy. Not the same thing. Especially since the primary reason it's easy is the AI is stupid.

[henrywiddas]

i don't mind easy but sort of like being whooped in games like dark souls or pillars of eternity/wasteland 2 on hardest difficult modes- guess i could do same with HoI4...

but it's not all bad, i haven't been whooped once in stellaris and still enjoyed that (apart from mid-game lull)

i've had euiv in my library for years but barely touched it so maybe - on a ccount of all the polishing and fixes - that would be better if i want to get a political and military beating lol

[Relkin43]

Well the generic tree seems pretty stronk but I'm fairly certain that will either be nerfed or they'll split it out into two generic trees (one for larger countrie like Mexico and one for saller ones like Lithuania).

[Squishmitten89]

They compromised between depth and ease of use, and from what I know. A good compromise leaves every one feeling cheated. In seriousness this game isn't half as bad as peple make it out to be. Sure 3 had OoB and supply lines, and all that other dressing but dispite all this "difficulty" it added I could still beat russia before christmas as Germany using the 1941 start. All without any micro. HoI 4 you don't have to spend the 1 to 3 hours getting you house into order. Sure the AI can be lacking but like it wasn't in 3. After all if you don't like the AI, go play online. Paradox stated they streamline things to make multiplayer quicker to get into,

[Treehugger]

It occurred to me now, that they might perhaps have simplified navy combat, by generalizing it, so that combat is resolved on a regional area, unless the units are moving around without combat orders OR if set to hold in which navy units sits there inside a sub-region.

Is it just me, or does it seem impossible to patrol a sub-region area (and not just an entire region area)? Or, perhaps, simply moving ships from one sub-region to another sub-region, would consitute some kind of patrol, as if micromanaging it.

I wish I understood navy combat better.

[henrywiddas]

i've heard quite a few people raise concerns about naval combat and apparently it's one of the ommissions from the tutorial. i'm guessing someone like arumba should have it covered though, or quill18 at some point

[Ás Fífldjarfi]

So far I found it easier to play online as a lot the players there have no idea how to play. I was playing Italy yesterday and some player picked Greece, annexed Albania and joined the axis. I asked the german to kick him out and let me at him, but he never responded, so eventually I left the axis and joined the allies to fight the evil greeks(I already had Yugoslavia after interveening in a war between them and Hungary, who was also player controlled).

The german still never said anything, but started justifying war against me, put all of his army into a megastack and moved it to Zagreb which Hungary controlled. Playing as Italy, my loyalty was not to the axis, the point is to grab as much land as you can and survive the war, and since the German player created a EUIV esque doomstack in Zagreb, as soon as he declared war he was promptly surrounded and completely wiped out. Since he never bothered with the Anschluss of Austria that was the only front, and he ragequit as soon as he realized he could not break the encirclement. Hungary and Greece were then crushed as well, as by joining the allies I did not have to keep men on the Italian-French bordes nor the Libyan-Egyptian border, and since Greece expanded into Serbia while I was crushing the Germans they were unable to effectively bottleneck me.

Say what you want about the A.I. Bad artificial intelligence trumps human stupidity all the time.

[henrywiddas]

ha ha great story, and very good point made. at least AI doesn't rage quit lol

as a matter of interest, how long does an online game last roughly or is it like asking how long is a piece of string?

[Josch]

Originally posted by Mountain Man:

It's popular these days to dismiss any new game as "casual". It's how your earn your hardcore cred. All the cool kids are doing it.

It is also popular to create simplified games to cater to a bigger audience. Every company (or band etc.) are going through this, they start small and care for a certain niche audience, then they grow and reach their zenith. From here on quality isn't the main goal anymore, only sales are mattering now and thus they "dumb down" their products to increase the buying public. I just think Paradox changed their philosphy after EU4 and we have to live with it :\

[Barry Wheeler]

Well hasn't this been a problem with every installation of HOI?

[28 Beers Later]

Originally posted by Josch:

Originally posted by Mountain Man:

It's popular these days to dismiss any new game as "casual". It's how your earn your hardcore cred. All the cool kids are doing it.

It is also popular to create simplified games to cater to a bigger audience. Every company (or band etc.) are going through this, they start small and care for a certain niche audience, then they grow and reach their zenith. From here on quality isn't the main goal anymore, only sales are mattering now and thus they "dumb down" their products to increase the buying public. I just think Paradox changed their philosphy after EU4 and we have to live with it :\

you talk about quality? have you been around when hearts of iron 3 released? this game is only dumbed down if you actualy enjoy learning how the game works for a week, paradox games have always been way less challenging after you learned how they work, thats kind of how every game works, give it time and it will be the best hearts of iron game, i for one enjoy a usable user interface

[Roundpixel]

Note that the vast majority (if not all) complaining that HOI4 is too simple are veteran HOI3 players. Note also that there are many new HOI4 players that are having difficulties coming to grips with this game. I played all the HOI games but have not touched them for a few years, so I am both a veteran and a newbie (if that makes any sense). And it is my opinion that HOI4 is NOT too easy and that it is very difficult for new players to get into.

From a marketing point of view. Paradox needs to get new players to play their new game, otherwise the player base will be too small to justify the expense, and aficionados of the old games will NEVER be satisfied with a new game, because every difference will seem like treason to them.

It was a great idea to make a new version of HOI with less micro-management, which turns off many players.

[henrywiddas]

@Roundpixel good points, i;ve read a lot of those new to HoI saying how tough it is and a lot of HoI veterans say how dumbed down it is, having said that, there are also quite a lot of HoI veterans saying HoI 4 is better in terms of ease to use without losing too much.

The AI was my main concern for this game but apparently HoI 3 AI isn't great either. Also, like it's been said, I bet starting in 1939 instead of 1936 will make things a lot tougher for Poland

[Ás Fífldjarfi]

Originally posted by henrywiddas:

ha ha great story, and very good point made. at least AI doesn't rage quit lol

as a matter of interest, how long does an online game last roughly or is it like asking how long is a piece of string?

That multiplayer game only lasted until 1940, mostly because Germany was declaring wars in 1937 before they actually had an army worth a damn. It also depends a lot on the players, as large game usually have someone who lags behinds and then the game slows down the game speed for him to catch up. I played I think from 16:30 to about 23:00 yesterday, but as I said that game only lasted from 36 to 40, but then again also, it was speed 1 a lot of the time and had to be rehosted from save a couple of time as it was completely open and lot of people joining in randomly playing on potatoes.

[Jon]

Originally posted by GIJoe597:

I am one of those "cool kids", half a century old, but still a "cool kid", who thinks HOI IV has been "dumbed" down. I guess I am just jumping on a bandwagon to be "popular". I am sure it has nothing to do with 40 years of gaming experience and seeing the decline of games which challenge you, and the rise of "mass market appeal".

Oh no, they made a game accessable to new players? The 'mass market appeal' you're talking about is just a natrual progression, as paradox is no longer a small company, as it was when they made some of the prevoius HOIs. News flash, when you have to support a larger dev team, niche just doesn't pay the bills anymore. I pose you a question: If you don't like the company, or the direction they're going, then why are you giving them your money? Vote with your wallet, the phrase goes