Dull air combat

[Mad A]

Opinions on HOI4 air combat?

After watching all of the World War Wednesday VODS it is obvious that air combat looks incredibly boring. We've seen the full mechanics that will be relesased at launch, so i might as well get this in early and start the discussion.

There has been a shift from the large micromanagement of air combat in HOI3 to a basically full macro focus in HOI4. It looks so pretty when you get to choose and design your own air wings, and it is very easy to keep track of overall air war attrition and corrispondingly cater for this with your production - great macro design.

However, the player control of the air war looks woefully unsatisfying. The air theatres are absolutely massive - France is divided into roughly two air theatres - and apart from a little balancing of numbers between different theatres, the air war is essentially on full autopiliot while you press on with th land war below. You can't load up air pressure on a select few provinces to make the difference, to crack a panzer breakthrough, or strike an infrastructure zone smaller than eastern France.

Am i missing something with the air mechanics here? There is very little strategy needed to use your air units in HOI4.

Solution: Clearly the designers don't want air units to be able to focus on single provinces - that is fair, that could create tremendous micro seen in HOI3. But they could form an air zone mapmode with air regions of much smaller sizes (say 4-5 provinces per region - similar to one of the mapmodes in HOI3) and allow you to group air units into air wings. This would provide a balance between macro and micro to make air war interesting and not just an attrition simulation.

[Radioactive]

Shuffling air units around appears annoying enough as-is, even with the big zones. It appears already a bit too mechanical when it is purely about doing the logical thing and having planes continue to support the front line that moved forward or back. Or when you are countering the most recent most contested area in the air war over Europe. I don't feel anything would be gained by making the zones smaller, except even more micro?

The "tremendous micro" HOI3, what was it? I recall I'd have liked it if I could just have marked my typical breakthrough & encirclement divisions as "auto support by this CAS/TAC doom stack" and have them and their reserves moved forward to suitable airfields automatically, but instead I was manually ordering attacks and/or designating too many areas... was it cones? And moving planes and their reserves (IIRC to be set to reserves again every time) between too many air fields. Plus of course their fighter cover, which was better defined to operate in the same exact area too.
I recall there were some more things you were able to micro with regards to air, but I don't recall any of it being very fun or clever. Perhaps you had something in particular in mind?

[Vuyek]

The player cannot micro his airplanes. There is no way to, say, focus on a specific unit and bomb it. Airplanes are now operating in regions - and to give an idea, France has 2 air regions...

Perhaps I am wrong and totally mistaken?

Prefer the scalpel of HOI3 over abstraction ruled HOI4.

[NordicWildheart]

It is a huge upgrade from HoI3 in my opinion. Besides, the air zones can be modded (didn't they show of just that during the last developer modding Twitch stream?).

[Vuyek]

It is a huge downgrade from HOI3. But I do love me some production lines and efficiency and division builder.

[crixy2312]

Modding the strategic zones (which comprises of air and sea zones) could be an option. I am pretty sur eit is possible. However, as someone who has played close to 1k hours of HoI 3 (700 on steam 300 offline), I tend to agree with the new design.

In HoI3 province based bombing was very tedious and time consuming, espcially when you fight large front. You just could not keep a track of everything and sometimes you end up having your planes patrol/bomb areas which are already under your control.

The only place micro in air war felt useful was in naval battles wherein you could keep sending in wave after wave of bombers and shred the Royal Navy BBs(when playing as Italy). Other than that, it was not exactly useful. Plus I know for a fact that AI implementation of Air war was pretty terrible.

For eg. - The AI just would not attack a province with High AA rating, it would not use its CAS groups actively enough. Its fighters would generally stick to defending their home province only and nothing else which made naval bombing very very easy.

By reducing the zones or options, I am hoping for AI to put up a fight in the air wars and challenge a player into achieveing air dominance.

[Mansen]

Maybe a compromise is in order. The current system with the added ability to focus fire on specific provinces as the player chooses.

[tekmeria]

It's obviously going to be a dlc
Very disappointed

[crixy2312]

Originally posted by Mansen:

Maybe a compromise is in order. The current system with the added ability to focus fire on specific provinces as the player chooses.

As of now you can focus fire on tanks/armored vehicles, infantry or ships in a specific air zone.

I'd say a few more air zones would really make the difference. But add too many, and the AI will again become mediocre in using the planes.

Originally posted by tekmeria1:

It's obviously going to be a dlc
Very disappointed

Unless its a specificly new feature, it will be a free patch. From my understanding all crticial updates will be free while flavor packs and new mechanics which do not interfere with the old ones will be sold seperately. Atleast that's what I gather.

[RealFakeGamerGirl]

Originally posted by tekmeria1:

It's obviously going to be a dlc
Very disappointed

Not so obvious to me. I think you're being really cynical, which is just the negative side of the baseless assumption coin.


As for OP, it's a Grand Strategy game. I don't need air power to be exciting. I need it to work and to not be a burden, requiring constant use of the pause button.

And I can't decide if they succeed in that until I play the game, DDs and Let's Plays not withstanding.

[Radioactive]

Originally posted by crixy2312:

I'd say a few more air zones would really make the difference. But add too many, and the AI will again become mediocre in using the planes.

But it seems like it already can too often devolve into air theater whack-a-mole anyhow?

A nation using bombers will probably already currently "naturally" prefer to attack the unguarded / less guarded air theater with bombers and fighters. And the nation defending might very well have to shift all his fighters to actually get air superiority against the bombing nation's fighters. [Maybe that also could require changing airports to get into effective range of the other theater that is now active, even if it might not be something the attacking nation needs to do.]

I think the only mitigating factors right now are that you are not too likely to have more than one-two air theaters that are relevant to a war in most instances because they are so big, and that the AI doesn't currrently seem to constantly optimize air theaters (you might be playing against players though...)

Besides, I think denying the enemy 75% air superiority also currently is a possible protection against paratroop invasions and the *only* protection against nuking once an enemy has nukes? So if your enemy has 1500 fighters, you might then need >1125 equal fighters *each* in, say, ~10-15 air theaters over important regions to defend in this way, rather than ~2-3? Any extra one changes the balance here strongly.

Without a lot more changes, adding more air theaters just seems problematic to me, at least on a glance.

[Mad A]

Originally posted by McGarnagle:

As for OP, it's a Grand Strategy game. I don't need air power to be exciting. I need it to work and to not be a burden, requiring constant use of the pause button.

totally agree. The HOI4 air combat system will certainly mean that the enemy AI can handle its overall air resources more efficiently.

Originally posted by Radioactive:

I recall I'd have liked it if I could just have marked my typical breakthrough & encirclement divisions as "auto support by this CAS/TAC doom stack" and have them and their reserves moved forward to suitable airfields automatically

This is true. Perhaps HOI4 needs province focus orders which can target individual provinces (or small groups of provinces) . Instead of forming multiple air wings and stacking them over many bases like in HOI3 - which i agree, is perhaps a little too much - simply create orders that take planes straight out of the overall stack assigned to that theatre and target a smaller area for a short time.

For example, say you have 100 bombers in the Eastern France theatre. These bombers may be striking any provinces with enemy divisions present; they are probably striking the enemy fairly evenly, or at least in a manner that you can't control or plan for. Perhaps your bombers are hitting 10 enemy provinces with 10 bombers a piece (total 100 bombers). What if paradox gave you a province focus button? For a few /hours/days/weeks (you could choose) that province could demand a priority for bombing - say 30% priority. Then for the set period 30 bombers would hit that region and the remaining 70 bombers would continue to spread and hit the other 9 enemy-held provinces. Once the province in back in your control, or the focus period selected ends, or you choose to end it earlier, the bombers simply return to the theatre pool and continue the spread bombing across the theatre.

It would be a simple and clean interface button adding flavour to the air combat without adding massive air wing micromanagement.

[crixy2312]

Originally posted by Mad A:

Originally posted by McGarnagle:

As for OP, it's a Grand Strategy game. I don't need air power to be exciting. I need it to work and to not be a burden, requiring constant use of the pause button.

totally agree. The HOI4 air combat system will certainly mean that the enemy AI can handle its overall air resources more efficiently.

Originally posted by Radioactive:

I recall I'd have liked it if I could just have marked my typical breakthrough & encirclement divisions as "auto support by this CAS/TAC doom stack" and have them and their reserves moved forward to suitable airfields automatically

This is true. Perhaps HOI4 needs province focus orders which can target individual provinces (or small groups of provinces) . Instead of forming multiple air wings and stacking them over many bases like in HOI3 - which i agree, is perhaps a little too much - simply create orders that take planes straight out of the overall stack assigned to that theatre and target a smaller area for a short time.

For example, say you have 100 bombers in the Eastern France theatre. These bombers may be striking any provinces with enemy divisions present; they are probably striking the enemy fairly evenly, or at least in a manner that you can't control or plan for. Perhaps your bombers are hitting 10 enemy provinces with 10 bombers a piece (total 100 bombers). What if paradox gave you a province focus button? For a few /hours/days/weeks (you could choose) that province could demand a priority for bombing - say 30% priority. Then for the set period 30 bombers would hit that region and the remaining 70 bombers would continue to spread and hit the other 9 enemy-held provinces. Once the province in back in your control, or the focus period selected ends, or you choose to end it earlier, the bombers simply return to the theatre pool and continue the spread bombing across the theatre.

It would be a simple and clean interface button adding flavour to the air combat without adding massive air wing micromanagement.

Or you can priortise on bombing specific units like tanks, infantry, ships or go ahead and bomb the infrastructre on industry.

That's the option right now on HoI4, along with the level of aggresiveness and time of bombings. Also the AI never bomb's all provinces in a theatre evenly, but it uses certain rules and triggers to choose its priorities. Some of these rules can be set by the player, while others are computed in real time, or modified with mods.

[Mad A]

Originally posted by crixy2312:

Or you can priortise on bombing specific units like tanks, infantry, ships or go ahead and bomb the infrastructre on industry.

That's the option right now on HoI4, along with the level of aggresiveness and time of bombings. Also the AI never bomb's all provinces in a theatre evenly, but it uses certain rules and triggers to choose its priorities. Some of these rules can be set by the player, while others are computed in real time, or modified with mods.

Yes there is some depth :) but my point is that this level of imput into air combat over such a huge region simply needs minimal player input. I feel they have stripped too much from HOI3 air combat; they needed to make it much simpler, but it looks totally axed in HOI4. You're likely going to set these options - CAGS aggressive + day bombing - at the start of the campaign and just leave the attrition simulation to begin. The enemy AI and your own AI will just use the same sets of triggers to choose priorities; this will just lead to 100% effective use of air power for both sides. This effectively cancels out both sides in terms of strategy and leads to a pure numbers and game - essentially the attrition simulation.

With clutch battles taking place, pockets of men surrounded, and bottlenecks of supply all i can reliably do is switch to infra or tank bombing both day and night in the hope that the AI working for me can read my mind and knows exaclty how i will advance with my divisions several days and provinces before it even happens. This system feels disconnected form the land combat; more attritional, statistical warfare. For many, including myself, air combat needs to feel more clutch, personal and impactful. Air combat looks so very disconnected from what is happening on the ground.

[kesmai]

Originally posted by Mad A:

essentially the attrition simulation.

close to reality.

[crixy2312]

Originally posted by Mad A:

Originally posted by crixy2312:

Or you can priortise on bombing specific units like tanks, infantry, ships or go ahead and bomb the infrastructre on industry.

That's the option right now on HoI4, along with the level of aggresiveness and time of bombings. Also the AI never bomb's all provinces in a theatre evenly, but it uses certain rules and triggers to choose its priorities. Some of these rules can be set by the player, while others are computed in real time, or modified with mods.

Yes there is some depth :) but my point is that this level of imput into air combat over such a huge region simply needs minimal player input. I feel they have stripped too much from HOI3 air combat; they needed to make it much simpler, but it looks totally axed in HOI4. You're likely going to set these options - CAGS aggressive + day bombing - at the start of the campaign and just leave the attrition simulation to begin. The enemy AI and your own AI will just use the same sets of triggers to choose priorities; this will just lead to 100% effective use of air power for both sides. This effectively cancels out both sides in terms of strategy and leads to a pure numbers and game - essentially the attrition simulation.

With clutch battles taking place, pockets of men surrounded, and bottlenecks of supply all i can reliably do is switch to infra or tank bombing both day and night in the hope that the AI working for me can read my mind and knows exaclty how i will advance with my divisions several days and provinces before it even happens. This system feels disconnected form the land combat; more attritional, statistical warfare. For many, including myself, air combat needs to feel more clutch, personal and impactful. Air combat looks so very disconnected from what is happening on the ground.

This is why I believe increase the number of airzones would add some tactical level planning into it.

But then again, HoI 3 wasn't exactly huge on air combat either. Mostly what would happen is You would have to choose between a gazzilion provinces to bomb and then track down the planes from which the area is being bombed in and give them orders to stop and bomb some other province. It was a game of attrition too actually, basically ensure you have the best stats, organization to ensure you outlast the enemy fighter's org. Come to think of it, that was what air war was in real life, a big attrition game. Yes pilot skill and equipment did matter but they are also reflected in HoI 4 through the Ace functionality and equipment production and variant production.

So basically add a few more airzones, like make it 4 airzones in france instead of 2, 4 for germany, etc. And you get a right balance between a degree of tactical deployments and ease of use. And the AI also has an easier time figuring out what to do.