Need some help with army size & organization

[Benzin]

Let me start by saying that Im pretty new to grand strategy games. Played some Making history gold & making history 2, then i moved to HOI3, dint like the UI and "blurry" graphics, so i refunded, then i got HOI4 wich im enjoying a lot.

After a lot of videos & reading i think i finally got a firm grasp on most game's mechanics, but now i need the strategy guide, so i would appreciate opinions on the following matters...

- How big of an army (i mean whole, national military force) should i have before starting "serious trouble" (e.g. taking on poland france & uk)? in other words, what is considered a "big" military force? 50 divisions, 100, 200 divisions?

- When taking on a powerfull country (e.g. france, uk, ussr, etc), how many division should i take for the ride? 20, 30, more?

- Say im attacking with 30 divisions, is it better to have two 15 div armies under 2 generals, or a single 30 div one for the attack?

- What is considered the "adecuate" size of a panzer/armored" army (used for encirclements, breakthrus etc)? 5, 10 divs?

- Do you guys make your panzer divs parts of your "main" infantry armies, or treat them as separate armies?

I understand the answers to most of these are probably a matter of personal taste, tactics, etc. but im trying to get an idea of what numbers i should be aiming for, so all opinions are appreciated!

thanks

[Mack]

The short answer for any army is that it needs to be as big as it needs to be to do it's job, and that can be supplied. It's hard to know but get used to look at supply. Obviously you want at least one unit per piece of front. If your units are to defend, you don't need as many as if you are attacking. I'd probably say 50 is the smallest viable 'army'. The larger the front, the more units.

Combat is based on unit width, and most combats take place in an 80 width front, so your divisions should be based around being 20 width. Usually the basic combat unit is a 7 INF & 2 ART unit. Big heavy units like Marine Assault units can be 40. One standard tactic is to replace the artillery & use a heavy tank destroyer with upgraded main guns. They become hard as nails.

Armour units are mostly 4 or 6 sets of tanks with mechanised or motorised infantry for organisation.

Large fronts are better with multiple armies under different leaders. The Russian Front is a good example, it's so big that you need to split the forces so they don't waste org & time running up and down the lines.

Encircling enemies can be very tough. You need to bring enough fast & heavy troops to break the line, then get around the enemy, while not leaving your line poorly defended. I'd probably say at least 4 heavy units per location you'll need to take & hold to encircle the enemy.

Some people will, some people won't. It's up to how much micro you're willing to do. One way I do it is to add them to the front then micro them when I want a breakthrough.

[BoydofZINJ]

When building an army. KISS = Keep It Simple, Sir.

There are a few things to remember, first thing to consider is WIDTH... its a stat when making an army. Each time you attack a province you can only have so many troops enter the battle at a time. It is determined by this:

1 Province attacking 1 province = 80 width. Each additional province that attacks adds another 40 width. As a result, if you are attacking from three sides that would be 80+40+40. If you are attacking from two sides then it would be 80+40 = 120.

This pic shows I have a combat width of 120.


http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/271720179210875273/FB7EFD79EB7BFCE145E2EEA5AD6E57733802C53A/

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=701320044

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=701340536

In the picture you will see I am attacking a single lone province and I have two provinces that are joined to that province. As a result, There are two fronts that can attack it. Each province, essentailly, that is joined to province in question (that you wantt to attack) is considered a front ... or add +20 to each province that is joining in on the fight.


So... imagine this... As Germany, you want to attack France, specifically, you want to take the province of Strasbourg FIRST (and only this one lone city and province). If you ALL your troops in 1 province and they attack... you can only get 80 widths worth of troops. However, Germany has, initially, two difference provinces that are adjacent to Strasbourg. If you have troops on both province attack at the same time then you have a total combat width of 120 (80+40). If you captured the French province to the north of Strasbourg and attack Strasbourg with the troops from the north and the 2 adjacent provinces you now have a combat width of 160 (80+40+40). It finally made sense... when I click on the battles and studied it.

If you have units that are exactly 20 width then you can send 4 units (and only 4 units) to attack. However, if your units are optimized BADLY... let us say you have 21 width then you can only send 3 units at a time. 21*3 = 63 (the 4th would be 84 - as a result, your 4th unit would sit and wait until your three units fail and then attack solo 1 to 4 odds).

Is width the only factor? NOPE.... however, it will help you optimize your troops. If you are attacking from three different sides and you had each unit at 20 width then all you need to send it a maximum of 8 units (8*20 = 160) (the province is being attacked by three sides so thats 80+40+40 = 160 width).


The other thing to remember are supplies. Having all UBER UNITS with a million different support and a combined armed regiment with tons of tanks, mechanized troops, etc... however, you need to supply your troops. The more items you need to add the longer it will take to supply your troops. Especially, if you do not have the resources,... it will delay your production by upto 90% (meaning without the proper amount resources it will almost take double as much time to make an item).

It is best to have a large army of mostly just infantry... with a few above average units and a small handful of crack or elite units. Think about the US military .... how many the Navy Seals are very good. Why are not all US Navy soldiers - also NAVY SEALS? Training, equipment, and it would bankrupt the US economy to have everyone as Navy SEAL with all the equipment and training. That is why the US navy seals are a small number of troops compared to the overall size of the us navy.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=706952137

Notice how I have some elite troops... they even have tanks, but i only have 2....
Notice I have a few mountaineers. I was playing Mexico and planning an invasion of the United States and there are some mountains there.

However, notice most of my troops are the basic troops and have the least amount of equipment.

[mastaflex]

Originally posted by Benzin:

Let me start by saying that Im pretty new to grand strategy games. Played some Making history gold & making history 2, then i moved to HOI3, dint like the UI and "blurry" graphics, so i refunded, then i got HOI4 wich im enjoying a lot.

After a lot of videos & reading i think i finally got a firm grasp on most game's mechanics, but now i need the strategy guide, so i would appreciate opinions on the following matters...

- How big of an army (i mean whole, national military force) should i have before starting "serious trouble" (e.g. taking on poland france & uk)? in other words, what is considered a "big" military force? 50 divisions, 100, 200 divisions?

- When taking on a powerfull country (e.g. france, uk, ussr, etc), how many division should i take for the ride? 20, 30, more?

- Say im attacking with 30 divisions, is it better to have two 15 div armies under 2 generals, or a single 30 div one for the attack?

- What is considered the "adecuate" size of a panzer/armored" army (used for encirclements, breakthrus etc)? 5, 10 divs?

- Do you guys make your panzer divs parts of your "main" infantry armies, or treat them as separate armies?

I understand the answers to most of these are probably a matter of personal taste, tactics, etc. but im trying to get an idea of what numbers i should be aiming for, so all opinions are appreciated!

thanks

I only play single player and only major nations and so far this is what I do in most of my games. I've also taken over the world as most major nations, I still haven't played France yet.

-always try to pump out the most troops from the beginning(increase conscription, etc.) while not over doing the supply until I have; 1 army of horse mounted, 1 army of mountain and 1 army of para as my special forces, then 1 army of mixed tank and motorised(usually 20 tank, 4 motor) and then up to 6-7 infantry armies with maybe one field marshal led army of several dozen divs as kind of a reserve for large fronts or ant-partisan. I also like to have fighter coverage and bombers for support of my armies so that's a big part my army ops for me.

-hard to say but I use my special forces depending the terrain and will usually use all armies but not unless it screws with my supply lines

-not sure what would be better I guess it depends on the situation. 30 divs in an army with a regular general would have a penalty and I never do this

-encirclements are hard to plan I find they kind of just present themselves and then I take advantage when it happens, I try to use my tank army for that but sometimes the infantry pull it off too

-seperate, I've also dabbled with the tank battalion in each infantry div but I find it's too much supply for the amount of infantry divs I make

[Benzin]

Thanks for your help guys!
I been learning more in-dept about this combat width mechanic, and i think now i understand it better. It does sound like a KEY concept for success, to be able to place as much troops (and there for firepower) on the enemy as possible.
I have now designed my inf divisions to have exactly 20 width, wich came out to this..
[img]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/253717471683482757/61DED66D81B4FFA576F28ABC146E315A546E17AC/[/img]
EDIT: cant get the image to show, its 8 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 AT artillery and of course with support units.

I tried to fit two line artillery units instead of 1 art and 1 AT, but width would go over 20.


After some testing (and capturing uk, france, czechoslovakia, yugoslavia and others lol) i found that i find myself more comfortable with one larger inf army (24 divs) to "hold" large fronts, two "medium" armies of 15 divs each to reduce pockets, advance into smaller areas, invade from several sides, and two small(?) panzer armies for quick penetrations.

I realize that i can do the same with one 24 div army that with two 12 div ones (well in my case 2 15s), but i find it tedious selecting individual unit groups inside the same army. So for some manouvers i prefeer two separate ones instead of a huge one.

As for the panzer armies, i kept them at about 6-7 panzer divisions and... man, what is to say? i LOVE those things!
I built the panzer divisions to have some medium tanks and motorized infantry, and i found that a very effective tactic for fronts that are not too wide (for example attacking yugoslavia from the north), i will advance on the whole line with inf, and at the same time, send both panzer armies on both sides, they will advance 2 or 4 provinces into enemy territory, then make a 90º turn towards each other, and by the time they meet, viola! i have encircled (and cutt offf from suplies the ENTIRE enemy front!
This worked wonders on my yugoslavia invasion. Now its time to try it on china.

Thanks for all your advice mack, BoydofZINJ & mastaflex! now i guess all that is needed is pracctise, practise and then some more practise.

[Benzin]

Guys, one more question:

Should i aim to have reserves on my attacks?

What i mean is, of course its better to have troops attacking from diferent sides (hence more combat width), but after thats acheived, is it desirable to have too much troops, so that they have reserves?
Im not sure i understand how reserves work. When the fighting troops get tired/weak, they swap places with the reserves?

[Scottx125]

Originally posted by Benzin:

Guys, one more question:

Should i aim to have reserves on my attacks?

What i mean is, of course its better to have troops attacking from diferent sides (hence more combat width), but after thats acheived, is it desirable to have too much troops, so that they have reserves?
Im not sure i understand how reserves work. When the fighting troops get tired/weak, they swap places with the reserves?

Not really, reserves take up resources, resources which could be spent on frontline units. Personally for the basic infantry unit, I aim for 20 width, 7 infantry 2 artillery. And each army grows in size of 24 (basic general size), so for a medium front 48 divsions, large front 72-96. But recently I've gone to building armies in this format, 24 normal infantry, 12 mountain infantry and 12 marines, all sharing the same division format. This means that whilst the main body of your army is infantry, you have a few specialised units there to breakthrough on mountainous or river heavy fronts, and the great thing is the AI knows when to use these divisions (so it will move mountain infantry over to provices where your army is attacking a mountain).

Now there is no such thing in this as fatigue :P, but there is something called planning and organisation, setting troops up on a frontline and waiting allows their planning and organisation to increase over time, this gives them a bonus to attack or defence. And so if your army is starting to grind to a hault after a push, it ushually means either you need more men or support to continue pushing, or you need to let your troops regain organisation and planning.

[Benzin]

Originally posted by «SG.Sub» | Sir Scottx125:

....

Now there is no such thing in this as fatigue :P, but there is something called planning and organisation, setting troops up on a frontline and waiting allows their planning and organisation to increase over time, this gives them a bonus to attack or defence. And so if your army is starting to grind to a hault after a push, it ushually means either you need more men or support to continue pushing, or you need to let your troops regain organisation and planning.

Thanks for your answer.
This is exactly when i tought reserves might come in handy. When the front line troops become bogged down due to their organization and/or HP dropping, the reserves would "replace them" as front line troops. isnt this it how it works in real life?
Too bad they dint model this mechanic into the game.

I seee you use mountain troops mixed in with your infantry armies, thats a great idea! currently my main armies are composed of 22 infantry and two mechanized. Assisted by my smaller but separate panzer armies of course.
I will replace some of my normal infantry divs for mountain ones on my armies!

About your composition, you mention 7 inf + 2 artillery in your inf divisions. Thats two "normal" artillery, right? not AT or AA.

Im currently using 8 inf, 1 art, and 1 AT, for a width of 20 per div. My idea was that they had the means to stand their ground against a sudden enemy tank attack if my panzer armies were far away to help them.
Do you think i would do better to replace my AT for a regular artillery? i would also have to loose an infantry regiment, otherwise widht would go up to 21.