I'm convinced the numbers are nonsense

[GerthQuake]

Equipment attrition numbers seem like they're totally arbitrary and inflated beyond belief. I lost 4,000 Artillery Pieces in under a month to routine attrition... that's almost impossible unless my men were lining up and taking turns tossing their equipment into the nearest body of water.

The AI also seems to be able to manipulate the supply and attrition rates to cheat. If my unit is out of supply for more than 2-3 days, it will almost cease to exist entirely - meanwhile I just encircled 8 AI divisions deep behind enemy lines with no airfield or port... and they're still alive almost a month later.

When will Paradox pull their head out and stop charging people a premium for bottom-of-the-barrel quality work?

[Bourgeois Conformist]

I'm sorry to say, but your conviction is simply wrong, nothing in this game is arbitrary. You can mouseover pretty much anything to see how it's calculated, so most issues can be corrected if looked into.

Now if you`re losing 4000 artillery pieces in a month, I`m guessing you have massive troop concentrations in high attrition areas (weather also plays a major role, which is seasonal). You might want to check that.

[GerthQuake]

Originally posted by Chef:

I'm sorry to say, but your conviction is simply wrong, nothing in this game is arbitrary. You can mouseover pretty much anything to see how it's calculated, so most issues can be corrected if looked into.

Now if you`re losing 4000 artillery pieces in a month, I`m guessing you have massive troop concentrations in high attrition areas (weather also plays a major role, which is seasonal). You might want to check that.

I'm well aware of what's causing the artillery losses. The problem is that it's completely ridiculous to suggest even a fraction of those losses could organically come from attrition.

It's arbitrary ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ - even with the lackluster tooltips. The AI clearly doesn't abide by the same rules. If the rules aren't applied unilaterally across all factions and instead leaves it to ambiguity - it's arbitrary.

[mk11]

Lack of information but I think you should look at Germany's rates of attrition during the 1941/42 winter before you state the result is ridiculous. If you are moving in mud and your horses die then you lose that piece of artillery.

[meatshield]

Originally posted by mk11:

Lack of information but I think you should look at Germany's rates of attrition during the 1941/42 winter before you state the result is ridiculous. If you are moving in mud and your horses die then you lose that piece of artillery.

Right. The ol' "historically accurate" arguement. An artillery piece stuck in the mud is just that, and nothing more. Its stuck in the mud, you pull it out. Unless the enemy overuns the area, your artillery piece should still exist .... and that would actually be "historically accurate".

and before you anything. lets examine your post. you start by saying

"lack of information"

then you go on to cite germanys attrition rates in winter of 41/42.

well lets have your source then, because your post lacks information, such as where are you getting your attrition rates from. so ..... source please.

and lets discuss the difference between equipment captured by the enemy, and attrition. because they arent the same thing, and your answer doesnt get to confuse them. because if i dont make the same mistakes as germany in winter of 41/42 (such as allowing an entire army group to be encirlced), then my attrition rates drop off dramatically.

[Bourgeois Conformist]

Guys, before you discount what mk11 said, have you got any military experience? Taken part in large scale exercises, been deployed or even in actual fights?

While I haven't been in any real fights (for which I am glad and thankful) I can tell you from my limited 12 year experience that stuff just breaks, is lost, is run over by a tank (haha, that one is real!), collides with another vehicle at night in bad weather, pops when temperatures drop below freezing, corrodes and should not be used any longer etc.
It's simply a fact of the matter that military activities drain an insane amount of ressources and resupply and logistics is paramount. If you leave the temperate zone sweet spot things will get worse, and HOI4 does a good job of simulating that.

[Bourgeois Conformist]

Originally posted by meatshield:

.... because they arent the same thing, and your answer doesnt get to confuse them. because if i dont make the same mistakes as germany in winter of 41/42 (such as allowing an entire army group to be encirlced), then my attrition rates drop off dramatically.

Just out of curiosity, which German army group was encircled in the winter of 1941/1942?

[meatshield]

none that i know of offhand without consulting a reference text.

my point is there is a difference between captured equipment and attrition. so dont cite me the stats for capped equipment and claim it in with attrition rates (not that you are doing that, just thats not accurate, if you did do that).

its true what you say about weather and stuff. ♥♥♥♥ gets ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up, things break, thats how it goes. but soldiers are also very creative with solutions. and they tend to be good at fixing things, re-purposing stuff etc.

i recall breaking down in an old truck years ago(in the 90's). And some ww2 vet happened by. I was young and had no idea why the truck wouldnt start (starter was blown). Anyway, "Ernie" the vet told me to pop the hood, and with a hunting knife managed to get the truck started. He told me not to shut it off, and drive straight out, and when i asked how he did that he said with a wink "you learn how to fix ♥♥♥♥ fast when people are shooting at ya"

Im not sure about the attrition rates. they do seem high. and seems like the enemy units dont suffer much from it, and my guys always do.

[Bourgeois Conformist]

Originally posted by meatshield:

none that i know of offhand without consulting a reference text.

my point is there is a difference between captured equipment and attrition. so dont cite me the stats for capped equipment and claim it in with attrition rates (not that you are doing that, just thats not accurate, if you did do that).

its true what you say about weather and stuff. ♥♥♥♥ gets ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up, things break, thats how it goes. but soldiers are also very creative with solutions. and they tend to be good at fixing things, re-purposing stuff etc.

i recall breaking down in an old truck years ago(in the 90's). And some ww2 vet happened by. I was young and had no idea why the truck wouldnt start (starter was blown). Anyway, "Ernie" the vet told me to pop the hood, and with a hunting knife managed to get the truck started. He told me not to shut it off, and drive straight out, and when i asked how he did that he said with a wink "you learn how to fix ♥♥♥♥ fast when people are shooting at ya"

Im not sure about the attrition rates. they do seem high. and seems like the enemy units dont suffer much from it, and my guys always do.

Fair point, didn't mean to be jarring. It's just that I never felt this to be an issue playing, if my tanks get stuck in deep mud and have to be abandoned when the mud freezes I just adress that issue (don't drive tanks through deep mud). It would really be interesting to see how HOI4 handles different attrition scenarios and comparing those results to actual WW2 attrition (though getting accurate source material would probably be a challenge).

[Ás Fífldjarfi]

There is no repair mechanism for equipment in the game, its a binary system, equipment is destroyed or not destroyed. Maintenance companies reduce attrittion of equipment and are supposed to reflect better maintenance, but in the end, the system is about losing and replacing equipment, not breaking and fixing.

[Big [REDACTED] Marty]

Originally posted by meatshield:

Originally posted by mk11:

Lack of information but I think you should look at Germany's rates of attrition during the 1941/42 winter before you state the result is ridiculous. If you are moving in mud and your horses die then you lose that piece of artillery.

Right. The ol' "historically accurate" arguement. An artillery piece stuck in the mud is just that, and nothing more. Its stuck in the mud, you pull it out. Unless the enemy overuns the area, your artillery piece should still exist .... and that would actually be "historically accurate".

and before you anything. lets examine your post. you start by saying

"lack of information"

then you go on to cite germanys attrition rates in winter of 41/42.

well lets have your source then, because your post lacks information, such as where are you getting your attrition rates from. so ..... source please.

and lets discuss the difference between equipment captured by the enemy, and attrition. because they arent the same thing, and your answer doesnt get to confuse them. because if i dont make the same mistakes as germany in winter of 41/42 (such as allowing an entire army group to be encirlced), then my attrition rates drop off dramatically.

pull it out? with what? you can't get a truck in there, the other horses are busy pulling other guns/supplies, get 50 men to stop doing anything useful and haul a gun through the mud?

better to just leave it, more shells for the rest

[hannibal_pjv]

https://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=3

https://www.google.fi/search?q=german+equipment+losses+stalingrad&source=hp&ei=1z1gYp_gOZOFxc8PzaOuqAc&iflsig=AHkkrS4AAAAAYmBL5wZkkXD0WYTbNsvhm1byn8dk01Ln&oq=germany+equipmet+loses&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYADIGCAAQDRAeOgsIABCABBCxAxCDAToRCC4QgAQQsQMQgwEQxwEQ0QM6DgguEIAEELEDEMcBEKMCOggIABCABBCxAzoFCC4QgAQ6CwguEIAEELEDENQCOgsILhCABBCxAxCDAToICC4QgAQQsQM6BQgAEIAEOgsILhCABBDHARCvAToHCAAQgAQQCjoECAAQAzoKCAAQgAQQRhD7AToECAAQCjoECC4QCjoICAAQgAQQyQM6BggAEBYQHjoICAAQFhAKEB46CQgAEMkDEBYQHjoECAAQEzoICAAQFhAeEBM6CwgAEMkDEBYQHhATOgoIABAWEAoQHhATOgoIABANEAUQHhATOgoIABAIEA0QHhATOggIABAIEA0QHjoHCCEQChCgAVAAWMqdAWDMsQFoBnAAeACAAXeIAesMkgEEMjcuMZgBAKABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz

[velvetcrabman]

Originally posted by Chef:

Guys, before you discount what mk11 said, have you got any military experience? Taken part in large scale exercises, been deployed or even in actual fights?

While I haven't been in any real fights (for which I am glad and thankful) I can tell you from my limited 12 year experience that stuff just breaks, is lost, is run over by a tank (haha, that one is real!), collides with another vehicle at night in bad weather, pops when temperatures drop below freezing, corrodes and should not be used any longer etc.
It's simply a fact of the matter that military activities drain an insane amount of ressources and resupply and logistics is paramount. If you leave the temperate zone sweet spot things will get worse, and HOI4 does a good job of simulating that.

This made me smile, missed out "left leaning against the side of an Fv432 as it pulls off" tho'.....

The British army has a phrase "squaddy proof" to describe something that is impossible to break, I certainly remember breaking a squaddy proof water bottle, clansman radio set antenna socket, SLR, and many other pieces of small kit, on the bigger kit I certainly broke a 4 tonner (lorry), couple of landrovers, trailers and once a pack howitzer that was brought back from the Falklands as a prize

Even a brief study of availability rates for motorised equipment in the '40's let alone purely tracked stuff would show that availability not absolute numbers was a huge problem. During B'rossa more Russian tanks were abandoned due to mechanical failure and lack of fuel than destroyed by direct enemy action, more by a huge margin.

[Drax]

Originally posted by velvetcrabman:

Even a brief study of availability rates for motorised equipment in the '40's let alone purely tracked stuff would show that availability not absolute numbers was a huge problem. During B'rossa more Russian tanks were abandoned due to mechanical failure and lack of fuel than destroyed by direct enemy action, more by a huge margin.

Hell, you don't have to go back to the 40's. Just in the invasion of Ukraine alone, a great deal of Russia's invasion woe's have been due to poorly serviced equipment. If their equipment was up to scratch, Kyiv would probably have fallen, or atleast have been surrounded, within a few weeks of the invasion. An AWFUL lot of their equipment just fell apart and was abandoned. There's even pictures of a Russian tank that was submerged in a pond.

They have greater numbers and far more equipment, but due to poorly maintained equipment and poor conditions, they've suffered a LOT of equipment loss. Losing 4k artillery is a bit extreme, but if the game's simulating you putting 20k artillery in a relatively small area of land, then you're going to get extreme numbers.