Why Building Civs from Day 1 is the way to go + Math to back it up

[Citizen X]

You can literally convert your Civs into Mils in under 10 days with all the right bonuses. And maybe even in 5. I don't think anyone realizes the potential of conversions.

Mils cost 7200 points to build, but only take 4000 to convert from a Civ.

Lets add the bonuses from Economy Law and Political Advisor; Now the cost is 2400

15 Civs put out 75 production

Level 10 infrastructure makes it 150

Now add all the military construction speed bonuses, plus the bonus from your Trade Law, which would be around 70-100% bonus construction speed.

150 x even just 60% is 240.

2400 Cost / 240 is 10 days....


This should be Meta. Ramp up your economy for years in the start, and then have a HUGE industry to militarize in a matter of months.

Image 150 + Civs Converting 10 Mils every 10 days...

This maybe situational because I play Italy and go for early conquests (France) and join the war in '42 on my terms, so Im not in need of a large army until then. I shoot for that 200+ Civs and then Militarize when Im ready.

[AdmiralPiett]

I mean yeah you're right but I also feel like we shouldn't classify people who DON'T rush civs as "doing it wrong". This game has no one right way to play.

Historically it would be impossible to fully militarize an economy like you say "in a matter of months". Nations started to build military factories way before the "last minute"; that's why the game has a tiered economy law system for gradual militarization of the nation.

You're right to say that people should use conversions more, they absolutely should.

I frown when people say things like "this should be meta" in a sandbox-ish historical grand strategy game as this. It implies there is "one right way" to play the game. My biggest pet peeve is the 7/2 division template meta because it's totally unrealistic when it comes to unit organization, past AND present. The closest thing would be a 6/3 (2x3-battalion infantry regiments and 1x3-battalion arty regiment).

This might be totally out of left field and you might think I'm a stuffed-up old roleplay historical accuracy fanatic but I don't particularly value the imposition of 100% through-and-through gamer logic and cheese tactics on historical grand strategy

[Big [REDACTED] Marty]

Use the economy to grow the economy without crashing the economy by paying for it with the economy. And if someone tries to stop you turn your economy into a mountain of guns with the economy.

[Citizen X]

Originally posted by edawg2001:

I mean yeah you're right but I also feel like we shouldn't classify people who DON'T rush civs as "doing it wrong". This game has no one right way to play.

Historically it would be impossible to fully militarize an economy like you say "in a matter of months". Nations started to build military factories way before the "last minute"; that's why the game has a tiered economy law system for gradual militarization of the nation.

You're right to say that people should use conversions more, they absolutely should.

I frown when people say things like "this should be meta" in a sandbox-ish historical grand strategy game as this. It implies there is "one right way" to play the game. My biggest pet peeve is the 7/2 division template meta because it's totally unrealistic when it comes to unit organization, past AND present. The closest thing would be a 6/3 (2x3-battalion infantry regiments and 1x3-battalion arty regiment).

This might be totally out of left field and you might think I'm a stuffed-up old roleplay historical accuracy fanatic but I don't particularly value the imposition of 100% through-and-through gamer logic and cheese tactics on historical grand strategy

At the end of the day, I don't get to decide anything. And I definitely don't get to decide whats META. This is a game, with mechanics that are designed to have intended consequences which are accompanied by unintended ones. I shouldn't make statements like "this should be meta" because at the end of the day it either is or isnt. This makes me win. Thats all I can say.

You're definitely right; this is a sandbox and people can definitely do whatever they want. I have to take into account that my perspective is my own and therefor limited. If it were true that "Historically, it would be impossible to fully militarize in months", and if you are therefor arguing against any alternatives to reality, then I can only assume every game goes exactly the same for you. Historically. You can play Germany and lose, if that's your thing.

But I'm quite a historical player myself, hence why I play only Italy, because I don't enjoy unifying Portugal and Brazil in some wack focus tree BS. I want to try and be a competent Italy who could have made a real difference with just some planning and initiative. Thats the extend of my historical tone in my playthroughs.

I stand with you when you say that the worst part of this game is the division width; although the size of states and provinces is a close contender. This is not even close to a flawless game.

To wrap up, I would never consider myself to be one who uses "cheese tactics". This is a game and I have used the tools at my disposal as the game intended. No cheating whatsoever. This strategy has been the most solid economic plan I have found in this game.

[Citizen X]

Originally posted by Big Dicc Marty:

Use the economy to grow the economy without crashing the economy by paying for it with the economy. And if someone tries to stop you turn your economy into a mountain of guns with the economy.

;)

[mk11]

Historically, factory conversion was a big part of the rapid build up of arms production in the UK. If you also look at the movement of resources from civilian factories so arms factories are running 24*7 then rapid conversion is quite realistic.

[drewbstar]

Other thing to consider is production %. It takes time to ramp-up. Not disagreeing that starting with civs is the way to go, but it's not perfect. In some forms (i.e mass producing guns) it can be worth having some military factories alloted a little earlier.
Depends on how min-maxxed you want to be and how early you go to war.

[AdmiralPiett]

Originally posted by mk11:

Historically, factory conversion was a big part of the rapid build up of arms production in the UK. If you also look at the movement of resources from civilian factories so arms factories are running 24*7 then rapid conversion is quite realistic.

Yeah I was saying focusing more on converting factories rather than "rush civs then rush mils" is more realistic, along with gradual increase in mil construction in the years/months leading up to war

[AdmiralPiett]

Originally posted by drewbstar:

Other thing to consider is production %. It takes time to ramp-up. Not disagreeing that starting with civs is the way to go, but it's not perfect. In some forms (i.e mass producing guns) it can be worth having some military factories alloted a little earlier.
Depends on how min-maxxed you want to be and how early you go to war.

This is a HOT take. The one thing OP (and all people who subscribe to this meta of "only build civs the first X years") forgot to consider in the great mathematical equation is how these decisions factor into production efficiency, particularly production efficiency growth

[Big [REDACTED] Marty]

production efficiency? what's that, can i smoke it?

[AdmiralPiett]

Originally posted by Big Dicc Marty:

production efficiency? what's that, can i smoke it?

Yeah and the longer you smoke it the bigger hit you get off of the same amount of product...

So it pays to not switch produtcs...

[drewbstar]

Originally posted by edawg2001:

Originally posted by drewbstar:

Other thing to consider is production %. It takes time to ramp-up. Not disagreeing that starting with civs is the way to go, but it's not perfect. In some forms (i.e mass producing guns) it can be worth having some military factories alloted a little earlier.
Depends on how min-maxxed you want to be and how early you go to war.

This is a HOT take. The one thing OP (and all people who subscribe to this meta of "only build civs the first X years") forgot to consider in the great mathematical equation is how these decisions factor into production efficiency, particularly production efficiency growth

It really depends on the country you're playing as, ime. Compare China and Japan going to war in 1937 with no economy versus Germany having years of build-up, numerous tech focuses and advisors, lots of high-infa zones, and basically a "eat half of europe for free" path or two.

[AdmiralPiett]

Originally posted by drewbstar:

Originally posted by edawg2001:

This is a HOT take. The one thing OP (and all people who subscribe to this meta of "only build civs the first X years") forgot to consider in the great mathematical equation is how these decisions factor into production efficiency, particularly production efficiency growth

It really depends on the country you're playing as, ime. Compare China and Japan going to war in 1937 with no economy versus Germany having years of build-up, numerous tech focuses and advisors, lots of high-infa zones, and basically a "eat half of europe for free" path or two.

Exactly. Further evidence there is no one right way to play the game, and it all depends on personal preferences and the nuances between nations in-game

[Big [REDACTED] Marty]

After enough time, theoretically, an ultimately perfect meta method of play can be developed for each nation, and there will be 1 given nation that will always "win" vs every other given nation when perfectly optimal meta play is used.

Vs the AI this is moot, because the AI is god tier, and better than all of us, for sure.

[Citizen X]

Originally posted by edawg2001:

Originally posted by drewbstar:

Other thing to consider is production %. It takes time to ramp-up. Not disagreeing that starting with civs is the way to go, but it's not perfect. In some forms (i.e mass producing guns) it can be worth having some military factories alloted a little earlier.
Depends on how min-maxxed you want to be and how early you go to war.

This is a HOT take. The one thing OP (and all people who subscribe to this meta of "only build civs the first X years") forgot to consider in the great mathematical equation is how these decisions factor into production efficiency, particularly production efficiency growth

Untrue. This is definitely considered, and in fact, I will call you and raise you on this idea. You wont be fighting WW2 with the same equipment at the start of the game, so at one point or another, you will START production on new equipment.

The solution to this problem is allocating all new mils to a 2nd Infantry EQ. dump line at the bottom of your production queue, which is meant to hold all the mils you acquire but have no where to put them at the moment. You wait until you have the full amount of factories you want for the New Production Line and allocate them all at once.

This means the production growth will never be hampered with during the lifespan of production, which theoretically would be the fastest way possible to reach max efficiency. The number of factories allocated will not affect the efficiency growth rate, so long as you never add anymore afterward.

[Citizen X]

Originally posted by drewbstar:

Originally posted by edawg2001:

This is a HOT take. The one thing OP (and all people who subscribe to this meta of "only build civs the first X years") forgot to consider in the great mathematical equation is how these decisions factor into production efficiency, particularly production efficiency growth

It really depends on the country you're playing as, ime. Compare China and Japan going to war in 1937 with no economy versus Germany having years of build-up, numerous tech focuses and advisors, lots of high-infa zones, and basically a "eat half of europe for free" path or two.

Right, it most definitely depends on the country. This wouldnt be a good model for Japan or China because their main fight starts so early.

For me, I play Italy and my starting army is enough to get me through France by Mid-37, which then gives me tons of mils I never had to build. All my Mils Pre-1940 would come through conquest. I don't join WW2 until '42 which gives me loads of time to reach that 300+ total Industry