Low Organization with Black Ice Mod?

[Robert Montjoy]

Hello all together!

I'm playing as Germany with the Black Ice Mod. Is someelse experiencing a very low organization? I mean REALLY low. My Tank and Infantry Divisions are by max. 10 Organiziation.

The war has not startet yet. Does this change when war beginns? (Think that was the case with HOI 3).

I just don't get it... they should bei around 70 or 80... I do have dievsre Divisions (lots of e.g. Infantry)... I'm partly mobilised the Supply is just fine (I'm still in Germany)... but no matter what... the Organisation is around 10 for Tanks and 7 for Infantry... wtf ???

[mk11]

Organisation tends to be a lot lower in Black Ice than vanilla.

Have you changed to Elite Officer and Training Standards?

Have you put signals companies in all your divisions?

Have you built radio equipment and done the various radio researches?

Have you researched command tanks 1 and 2 and built them?

Have you done any of the WW2 Doctrines other than the main one? The improved HQ commands and the defense ones all give more organisation.

I think radio equipment is particularly important.

You can see the breakdown of organisation in a deployed division by hovering over the organisation value of a division

[Robert Montjoy]

Thank you for the quick answer. I've played Black Ice and HOI before and after a year (or so) I just had time to spare and play again. I never noticed this steep reduction in Organisation before.

I like to play as histotcal as accurate hence I play this mod and hence my Divisions are not optimized for the game but histrically quite accurate.

Pleas let me give an example. This is an Infantry Division from 1937:

4 Regmints of which are 3 Infantry and 1 Artillery Regiment, aprox: 19.000 Soldiers, equipped at 99%, in full Supply and stationed in Germany, dug in.

And now here the Details about Organisation... that's outrageous!

9 x Infantry: +270
3 x Artillery: -30
1 x Medium Artillery: -16
1 x Head Quarters: +26
1 x Engineers: -5
1 x Recon: +5
1 x Heavy Artillery: -18
1 x Support Anti-Air: -5
1 x Maintenance: -5
1 x Logistics: -5
1 x Field Hospital: -5

My Calculator sais: 212 !!

Further it reads:
Ludwig Beck: +4%
Officer Training Laws: +8,7%

Allright... that should be around 240 !!

Well, I know, I've never seen such high Number anytime before... (and no, that written by Organization and nit strength)...

But... If you're not seated yet, buckle up...

All this above comes somehow to an Organization of 10,8 !!!

I know that the Organization is lower in Black Ice... but that??

I mean... a sister Division fought the Spanisch War and fought against some Militia with an Organisation of 17,8 ??

So basically this means:
18.000 fierce N*zi Stormtroopers, backed with 100 plus Heavy Artillery Guns, 100s of Machine Guns and Ammo up to the get no... fighting 2.000 Spanish Civilist armed with Peashooters and Stone Slings and... instaed of crushing them in a few Minutes run away after 4 Hours of intense combat...

WTF ??? That's outrageous... who comes up with this piece of ♥♥♥♥? Hope that Dude was fired...

Or am I plain to stupid and miss something ??

[Robert Montjoy]

Sorry forget to metion one thing I didn't understand what is somehow right in terms of calculation:

Under the Stats for Organization it reads: Averaged Base 9,6

If I take this 9,6 and apply the boni for Ludwig Beck (4%) and the Officers Chor (8,7%) it is aprox 10,7 in Organization.

But now my Qustion is: What does Averaged Base mean? Or how is it calculatet?

9,6 is never in a Million Years the Average of above mentioned Details...

[mk11]

Sum all the details divide by number of battalions and companies. So in your case you have 21 component parts for an average of about 10.0 - not sure why you have 9.6 but close.

They don't run away after a few hours, they become disorganised and ineffective because they are relying on motorcycle or cavalry outriders and field telephones. Get a signal company in there and some radios and you will easily double that. Just checked some 1943 Soviet divisions and they have about 30 organisation.

All that artillery is nice but it pushes down the organisation a lot. At the moment you are using temporary phone lines to control it. Once you can get some radios in place the organisation cost will be less significant. Seems fairly logical.

[mk11]

I'm guessing here but I suspect the discrepancy is you missed an AT unit?

[Robert Montjoy]

Yes it is somewher around 10... sure. But what you're basically trying to tell me is... 18.000 Militias, irregular Infantry, is more combat efficient than a force of combined arms? I wonder why Armies are still using this tactic today and are not going to club each other to death witch stone clubs. JUST KIDDING!! I very much apreciate your comments!

Yes you're right in one Point: AT is missing. I'm going to install some SP AT-Guns (Marder 1) as soon as I do have the Army Experience Ponts to alter the template. I'm curious if this will positivly change the Organization.

And sure... I'll place some radios in... as soon as I researched Radio Technology... let's have a look than.

Thanks a lot for checking with your Mid War Soviets... 30 is not much... in Vanilla ist would be around 70 ore 80... anyway... to beat the Soviets in a few years it has to raise to at least 40... or Barbarossa has ended before it begun.

[Robert Montjoy]

... and sorry... as I mentioned: I try to play historically and so... a German Infantry Diviosn sports 3 Infantry Regiments an 1 Artillery Regiment with 4 Battaillons (Abteilungen)

[mk11]

It is different. Battles play different from those in vanilla. Despite the low organisation I have never had any problems with German or Soviet forces (pre-purge) defeating Spanish militia (as long as I avoid low-supply areas). After the purge, Soviet forces have difficulty fighting partisans until can fix some of the issues.

When you launch Barbarossa the Soviet's have such big minuses that you should have no problem stomping over them. The figure I gave was for 1943 by which time I had fixed most of the issues (still need to get radios into recon and tanks and catch up on doctrines). At that point the front is mostly a stalemate. I can cycle attacks to advance a bit but then have difficulty holding the new territory. The battles feel much more realistic.

[Megarboh]

Originally posted by mk11:

It is different. Battles play different from those in vanilla. Despite the low organisation I have never had any problems with German or Soviet forces (pre-purge) defeating Spanish militia (as long as I avoid low-supply areas). After the purge, Soviet forces have difficulty fighting partisans until can fix some of the issues.

When you launch Barbarossa the Soviet's have such big minuses that you should have no problem stomping over them. The figure I gave was for 1943 by which time I had fixed most of the issues (still need to get radios into recon and tanks and catch up on doctrines). At that point the front is mostly a stalemate. I can cycle attacks to advance a bit but then have difficulty holding the new territory. The battles feel much more realistic.

for some reason everytime i play bice germany i couldn't even push a single tile at start of barb even with tanks, nothing wrong with org or templates really just somehow couldn't push

[Robert Montjoy]

@ Megarboh: oh my... that doesn't sound to good... hope I'll fare better.

@ mk11:
just to know. I checked as I wondered myself. Actually there is some Foot AT in the Divison which, for some reason, is not mentioned in the summary of the Organization, but it seems to be taken into Account. I forgot that because I replace ATG and Artillery as soon as I can with SPG Stuff... to get those Pz I some use after inventing the Pz III and IV.

And I'v done some research by myself... o.m.g.: Those crazy Radios give an beefy 0,2 Orga boost PER single radio and a Signal Company gives a boost of 48 (!!). Furthermore the Tech of "Command" gives an insane boost of Orga. to the HQ, which every Division has.

I think this may explain it, and why Divisions start out that poorly. Certainly I was aware of Tech boosting the Orga, but thought mainly of "Blitzkrieg-Stuff".

So thanks a lot buddy for opening mine eyes! :)
(... just as I said above: I was to plain stupid and missed out on something)

[mk11]

AFAIK all those boosts are to the sum before averaging. So if you have 23 components in a division adding 5 to HQ organisation is only about 0.22 to the divisions base org. Likewise a signal company would take you from 212/22 to 260/23 or 9.6 to 11.3 (actually more than that as the signal company has radios in it).

I guess the foot AT has a base org adjustment of 0 which is why it got left from the summary. On the whole, I think self-propelled guns have more org than the cavalry ones, although that might be an effect of doctrines.

[LasagnaMan12]

Elite officer training + elite training will increase organization by a fair amount, and be sure to change your mobilization laws which start out dramatically reducing division combat power. (Keep in mind that, as far as I understand, officer training impacts organization boosts for divisions; so as an example, no officer training with elite division training will not apply organization buffs)

[Robert Montjoy]

Allright! Good Hint... thank you!