Japanese entry into War vs Allies

[Imhotep]

The historical branch of the Japanese national focus tree is 'Purge the Kodoha Faction Branch':

https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Japanese_national_focus_tree#Purge_the_Kodoha_Faction_Branch

Further down the tree are focuses that give war goals for entry into war with the Allies.

Firstly, there's a choice between 'Bypass the Philippines', which gives 1 x 100% research bonus for Landing Craft and Advanced Landing Craft, and 'Secure the Philippines', which gives a Puppet War goal against Philippines.

This is followed by the focus 'Strike on the Southern Resource Area', which gives war goals against Dutch East Indies, British Malaya, the owner of Singapore (likely UK), and France.

The Philippines start the game as a puppet of the United States, so choosing the 'Secure the Philippines' option and attacking the Philippines will surely lead to war with the United States, and maybe all the Allies.

In the real Second World War, Japan attacked the United States at Pearl Harbor, and invaded the Philippines, British Malaya and Singapore (among other places) all within hours of each other.

So my questions are:

1) What is the point/what are the implications of the 'Secure/Bypass the Philippines' decision?

2) Is what the Japanese did historically - a Pearl Harbor-style attack/declaration of war combined with invasions of places - even possible in the game? To get into a state of war with the United States, it seems one would either have to wait for them to declare war after attacking their Philippines puppet, wait for them to get called into the war by the UK after attacking British Malaya/Singapore, or manufacture a regular war goal, which would need to be timed to coincide with the completion of the 'Strike on the Southern Resource Area' national focus.

[drewbstar]

Idk how long you've been playing, but pre-MTG there was a rather different USA tree. They talked about balance vs realism in the decision to shift away from Pearl Harbor and to the way it is now.

Anyway, the short version is that the USA stores a pretty strong naval force in its puppet. If you think you're going to war with them, it often makes sense to knock it out. The ports there represent an easy way for allied subs to strike right next to the home islands and for carrier/BB forces to disrupt your southern push. Not to mention the airports or threats of invasion.

1. Free upgrade bonus for invasion speed/capacity or faster war goals. Your choice. Special MtG note that if the USA goes communist then it will eventually free the Philippines and you won't have to worry about dragging them in as much.

2. Not really, but kinda. If you have LaR you can use the Coordinated Strike option.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/hoi4-dev-diary-operations.1284812/

Allow setting up air strikes and launching a surprise attack. This will let us simulate things like Pearl Harbor and the devastation that the germans wrought on soviet air forces on the start of Barbarossa. Your agents prepare an area that will see a strong intial strike. You need to set up your air force missions before and when the operation triggers the strike will happen (and war declared if you are a nation allowed to do this). It works for port strikes and strategic bombing.

[trupizza]

1. Honestly? Not sure. The Imperial Japanese launched all-out invasions of Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Guam, and the Philippine Islands shortly after attacking the United States of America. In the game, the Attack on Pearl Harbor is not mentioned once; not in events, news articles, focus trees, decisions, nothing. I suppose the idea is that the Japanese player already has intricate naval invasions set up to conquer the Philippine Islands and South East Asia before taking the Secure the Philippines focus, and then launching the invasions directly after declaring war.

2. It could be possible via decision or focus. The United States could have a focus or decision that twists its arm into moving some of its navy into Pearl Harbor, to which Japan could then take a decision or focus to attack, damaging/sinking a random amount of ships, infrastructure, and declaring war on the U.S.; I could see some invasion preparation/speed bonuses being awarded in the form of a national spirit, to replicate the speed at which Japan seized Guam, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore, etc. I'm not quite too sure why the Pacific War seems so barren compared to other parts of gameplay; a US/Japan-exclusive national spirit representing the Island Hopping campaigns both sides conducted would be easy to implement, as plenty mods have.

[Imhotep]

Thanks for the replies.

The Coordinated Strike option seems to be the closest thing to a Pearl Harbour-style attack. It requires a war goal against the target, though, and it seems the only way for Japan to get a war goal against the United States directly would be to manufacture one using the normal method.

I wonder if taking the Secure Philippines choice would allow one to get into a war against the United States, but not against the British? Similarly, bypassing the Philippines might allow one to get into a war with the British, and not the United States? It's unclear how the United States gets into the war if the game does not follow the historical path.

I'd ask which would be the historical choice between Secure/Bypass the Philippines, but neither of them seem to produce a historical outcome.

How do you think it would be best to proceed to try and get closest to what happened historically?

I'm thinking Bypass the Philippines and manufacture a regular war goal against the United States, timed to complete at a similar time as the 'Strike on the Southern Resource Area' national focus is completed. Then war can be declared against British Malaya, the United Kingdom and the United States simultaneously. The United States would probably bring the Philippines into the war, hopefully pretty quickly, and pre-planned invasions of the Philippines could then be launched.

[trupizza]

Originally posted by Imhotep:

Thanks for the replies.

The Coordinated Strike option seems to be the closest thing to a Pearl Harbour-style attack. It requires a war goal against the target, though, and it seems the only way for Japan to get a war goal against the United States directly would be to manufacture one using the normal method.

I wonder if taking the Secure Philippines choice would allow one to get into a war against the United States, but not against the British? Similarly, bypassing the Philippines might allow one to get into a war with the British, and not the United States? It's unclear how the United States gets into the war if the game does not follow the historical path.

I'd ask which would be the historical choice between Secure/Bypass the Philippines, but neither of them seem to produce a historical outcome.

How do you think it would be best to proceed to try and get closest to what happened historically?

I'm thinking Bypass the Philippines and manufacture a regular war goal against the United States, timed to complete at a similar time as the 'Strike on the Southern Resource Area' national focus is completed. Then war can be declared against British Malaya, the United Kingdom and the United States simultaneously. The United States would probably bring the Philippines into the war, hopefully pretty quickly, and pre-planned invasions of the Philippines could then be launched.

Likely the best way to proceed and get closest to what happened historically would be to take Bypass the Philippines and Strike on the Southern Resource Area, and justify on the United States of America manually. Wait for both focuses to complete in order to garner all war goals at once; prepare a coordinated strike against the United States; declare war on South East Asia and Great Britain, activating pre-planned naval invasions into Malaysia, Hong Kong, Singapore, Dutch East Indies; then activate coordinated strike on the USA and activate invasion plans against Guam, then wait for the Philippines to be called in before activating invasion plans against them as well.

You can take all the focuses and justify on the U.S. before December 7th, 1941, then activate everything at the same time on that date if you are going for extreme historical accuracy. It is a bit of a shame though; for a game touted as a historical World War 2 map game, it just omits one of the most important events in the war; the Attack on Pearl Harbor and the subsequent American declaration of war upon the Imperial Japanese, which sealed the fate of both Japan and Germany.

[Imhotep]

Originally posted by trupizza:

Likely the best way to proceed and get closest to what happened historically would be to take Bypass the Philippines and Strike on the Southern Resource Area, and justify on the United States of America manually. Wait for both focuses to complete in order to garner all war goals at once; prepare a coordinated strike against the United States; declare war on South East Asia and Great Britain, activating pre-planned naval invasions into Malaysia, Hong Kong, Singapore, Dutch East Indies; then activate coordinated strike on the USA and activate invasion plans against Guam, then wait for the Philippines to be called in before activating invasion plans against them as well.

You can take all the focuses and justify on the U.S. before December 7th, 1941, then activate everything at the same time on that date if you are going for extreme historical accuracy. It is a bit of a shame though; for a game touted as a historical World War 2 map game, it just omits one of the most important events in the war; the Attack on Pearl Harbor and the subsequent American declaration of war upon the Imperial Japanese, which sealed the fate of both Japan and Germany.

That sounds like a grand plan!

What might throw a spanner in the works in trying to follow a historical course is that the success of the Pearl Harbour-style Coordinated Strike depends on whether there are American ships in port in Hawaii. There's no guarantee that the AI will have any ships there at all. It requires 30% Naval Intel to reveal whether there are enemy fleets in a port, which is easy to achieve, though. Manufacturing a war goal against the United States could even see them move fleets to Hawaii. It's early 1941 in my game and there currently aren't any fleets in port in Hawaii or the Philippines.

[drewbstar]

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/how-does-pearl-harbour-gambit-work.958020/

The USA had a focus which gave Japan an option to attack them, but required them to store IIRC at least 9 capital ships in Hawaii. Can't remember everything they said, but it basically boiled down to wanting to keep it balanced and fun.


As for war with the Allies with or without the USA, it varies. The AI, in mey experience, has been pretty inconsistent. Sometimes it joins fast and other times I've taken the entire Pacific (including a middle finger with the Panay incident) and they still don't do anything.

[Imhotep]

I guess the "Pearl Harbour" attack doesn't necessarily need to happen in Hawaii. One could put an operative in Hawaii and another in Guam, and others in other American Pacific ports if available, and hope that a fleet docks in one of them. The Coordinated Strike operation looks like it takes eight days to complete - five days preparing materials and three days for the operation itself. That should be enough time to move a fleet into position. If the war goals from national focus and manufacture are timed correctly, then there should be a sixty day window of opportunity for a Coordinated Strike somewhere.

[TasteDasRainbow]

There used to be a decision that orchestrated the pearl harbor event in a more clean fashion, albeit requiring a natural bit of set up.

Depending on how accurate you want to be about it, you can still abstract this by simply positioning your fleet off pearl and setting the planes to port strike before declaring war, and will require a bit of micro to leave the area in time if you care about preventing an engagement to keep with historical. You can hold back subs, etc. but this is all player choice.

I had a full playthrough once where I got lucky and the AI rather naturally followed the war just perchance. They initiated with an attack at my capitals stationed at pearl, forced an engagement with my forces at midway, had their battleships finished at leyte, and collapsed as a navy at that point.

The best way to play for historical runs though is to ensure you yourself are playing as historically as possible to pull the ai toward your forces. So it all depends on how much you want to play historically vs how much you want to play optimally.

[George Smith Patton]

America will auto join the war at 100% on the allies no katter what unless they go communist or facsist, so if your going to by pass the phillpines at least have a plan to overwhelm them, after you strike southeast asia it wont be long if germany is historical for it to reach 100%, too me it makes ot pretty much useless, i feel like their should be a congressional milestoje in order to declare war at the very least if not attacked, as historically the us could never actually get its hands dirty unless the axis powers all decided to go to war which was hitlers biggest foolish mistake, it was the only time he offically declared war on another nation. If he hadnt we would of only went to war with japan. Anyway, its a gamble either way, i suggest if your going to attack the US, you may as plan big, i want to do a japanese campaign now that i think of this. If world tension is low and you can get away with it for a while than bypass the phillpines and wipe out india and australia, youll be much better prepared to foght the US, prehaps even help germany take out the soviets as they should of done in real life. With china the doviets and india out the allies almost cannot win esspically AI

[Road Animal]

IMO there should be a pearl harbour event it is one of the most famous WW2 events , why the hell would it be completely left out for any reason ?
I secure Philippines focus , but do not declare until after I have got the focus for British Malaya and declared war on them after China , then I take all of India Indochina with decision , and all of East east indies at same time , then Australia and New Zealand and work my way up all the British Islands until there is only the Philippines and USA Islands left , then I declare on the Philippines , much easier to keep the USA out of war until the allies are % 100 eliminated in the entire Pacific , then I head to Attu and Alaska , through Canada USA Denmark Iceland and UK

[Diddy Rizzlington]

dis all dosent matter you can beat the allies and france by 1938 and take their navy (its enoff to beat the US navy) simply invade portugal in da begining , have naval acces to spain and italy gemrany, have 10 infantry div to invade lisbon from taiwan have the long range big ships on naval supremacy on the oceans and the rest on naval invason suport and jusifty asap, also move the rest of ur army to italy by asking for access, after ur done justify on birtish malaya and decelare war on malaya and have naval invasion ready for britain and once u landed in UK prepare an naval invasion of france (u will hav navy supremacy on da english channel if u take all the ports) and then once u beat them both take all their navy and invade the US through canadia by annexing the quebec region and puppeting candada so have a small front

[Road Animal]

A path id not thought of I will give it a go some time re Portugal , but where do you invade Portugal from ?

[Road Animal]

Id still like to see historical realism and the whole reason USA even entered war
in first place , even if it is watered down like the official narrative , the USA knew of the attacks on Pearl Harbour and deliberately let it happen for war support and justification , thats why the carriers were removed from port , that is according to the admiral of the Pacific fleet , in his conversations with ex CIA whistle blower Kevin Shipp , sounds right knowing government

[Road Animal]

Originally posted by George Smith Patton:

America will auto join the war at 100% on the allies no katter what unless they go communist or facsist, so if your going to by pass the phillpines at least have a plan to overwhelm them, after you strike southeast asia it wont be long if germany is historical for it to reach 100%, too me it makes ot pretty much useless, i feel like their should be a congressional milestoje in order to declare war at the very least if not attacked, as historically the us could never actually get its hands dirty unless the axis powers all decided to go to war which was hitlers biggest foolish mistake, it was the only time he offically declared war on another nation. If he hadnt we would of only went to war with japan. Anyway, its a gamble either way, i suggest if your going to attack the US, you may as plan big, i want to do a japanese campaign now that i think of this. If world tension is low and you can get away with it for a while than bypass the phillpines and wipe out india and australia, youll be much better prepared to foght the US, prehaps even help germany take out the soviets as they should of done in real life. With china the doviets and india out the allies almost cannot win esspically AI

USA does not auto join allies at % 100 , I am playing Japan now , and its been over % 100 war tension for a long time , they do not respond , they might after 1942 or 1943 , there must be another trigger

[Metal Izanagi]

Originally posted by Road Animal:

Id still like to see historical realism and the whole reason USA even entered war
in first place , even if it is watered down like the official narrative , the USA knew of the attacks on Pearl Harbour and deliberately let it happen for war support and justification , thats why the carriers were removed from port , that is according to the admiral of the Pacific fleet , in his conversations with ex CIA whistle blower Kevin Shipp , sounds right knowing government

Let's not start asking Paradox to include conspiracy theories when we're talking about an attack that killed a whole lot of people whose direct descendants are still alive today.