Why do all the nations I'm at war with join the allies before 80% world tension.

[MindlessPirate]

Context:
I haven't been playing the game for a long time, I've only got upwards of 600 hours sunk into the game atm but every source I can find says that this shouldn't be happening.
My friends and I have been trying to defeat the Allies as the Axis powers (I.E. Germany, Japan, and Italy) for a while now. It's been a ton of trial and error but after maybe twenty attempts we still haven't been able to do it. I don't expect to because we are first starting out.
In fact we would be even farther behind if my friend LoneAssassin hadn't been obsessed with the game before any of us ever bought it. I would have never gotten the most basic of mechanics. Well when we first started playing the Axis powers he showed me that Germany could get a "free-bee" at the start of the game. Meaning, it could conquer at least one nation before Britain started to... well… be Britain.
He always went for the Netherlands because of the dutch East Indies and their rubber. I, however, as Italy began wondering if there was a way to use that "free-bee" to better advantage.
Context relating to problem:
Long story short after a tone of trial, error, and research we both decided that if the Axis formed early, Germany justified against Yugoslavia and Italy justified against Turkey. Then we would be at war with practically the entirety of the European continent at once because Yugo was guaranteed by France, Czechoslovakia, and Romania.
If it worked it would allow us to have land in Europe to prepare industry for the coming World War and It would give French, and Turkish resources for Italy to build fleets to counter the British fleets and Germany to build equipment to counter the land forces.
All for just under 25% world tension which would fly under the British radar and allow us to finish the war for Europe, without British intervention, within a year. With about two years of preparation for the coming of World War II.
It worked, however, unforeseen events happened. We were forced to restart and refine the idea.
Problem:
After the restart we made the same moves with some deviations in production that would allow us to take France within a day of the war starting. Paving the way to winning the war even faster. We defeated France, annexed them, saved, and moved on to Czechoslovakia while I, as Italy, moved on the Turks and waited for the Yugoslavian Civil War to end so I could take the entire state.
Germany annexed Czechoslovakia in the meantime and… the game crashed before we could save it again.
We restarted the game and went back to the save to excitedly continue our conquest because the war was indeed going to be finished earlier than we had previously thought possible.
We loaded the save back up and defeated Czechoslovakia for the second time but Turkey joined the allies, something that hadn't happened twice before. We loaded it up again at this time Romania joined.
We were perplexed as to why this was happening and later research declared that 80% was the limit for Democracies to join factions.
So we tried a less ambitious project, don't attack Turkey. The WT was raised to around 50 to 60%. Czechoslovakia, Romania, Turkey, and Yugoslavia, all joined the allies immediately after the annexation of France.
I am led to believe that this is a glitch that happened when our game crashed. However, I am not above thinking that there is some obscure event that happened or didn't happen that allowed us to or didn't allow us to take over Europe.
We are running a completely un-modded game with all the DLCs (texture packs and audio soundtracks notwithstanding). We didn't want to use Exploits on the AI and I at least I am set on making this strategy work.
If anyone knows a fix to this glitch or knows why democratic nations are allowed to join factions before 80% WT then I would very much appreciate the fix and/or the advice.

[Citizen X]

Hello! This may not be the correct answer, but for Romania has a focus that lowers tension limit by 100%, and Turkey has a focus that outright lets them join the Allies, which may explain those two. I'm not sure about Czech or Yugo.

I too main Italy and go for France early, however I do not ally with Germany, and instead wait until Czech drops their guarantees. As for Yugo, I declare war on them and Greece at the same time, which brings in Romania. If you play your cards right, you may be able to get Turkey in their as well. To prevent the UK from guaranteeing, I justify war goals on other countries like Ireland and Belgium which the UK will attempt to guarantee first, wasting their time and PP. If that is too cheezy for you, then I understand.

This is slightly unrelated, but after I defeat France in '37, I like to use my newly acquired Vietnam to help Japan with China in order to secure a very nice Chinese colony in mid '38. But again, I play alone mostly, and I am more concerned about getting China's resources and manpower for myself, rather than let Japan have them.

[Fargel_Linellar]

World tension requirements are different depending on the ideology.
https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/World_tension#Tension_required

All non-aligned nation can join the allies with 40 World tension.

Czechoslovakia won't be able to. Howvever, Turkey joining the allies will raise it, probably making it peak to 80%

[bubbas]

Originally posted by MindlessPirate:

...that would allow us to take France within a day of the war starting...

Originally posted by MindlessPirate:

...We didn't want to use Exploits on the AI...

Something here doesn't sound right . . . but you do you ;)

[MindlessPirate]

Yes i realized that only after i posted. Paratroopers ARE cheese and Exploity. I suppose i was caught up in my own original dream of not using exploits and conveniently forgot about everything Exploity we did. To be fair though a Day was the quickest it took to take France. most of the time it took a week to get air superiority and it didn't take Belgium much longer than that IRL. About another week. Poland fell within a month 26 days so that would bee more expected from France i suppose consider the similar size of the two countries.
Either way there is bound to be more cheese we have used so just ignore that part.

[MindlessPirate]

Originally posted by kyleperry19:

Hello! This may not be the correct answer, but for Romania has a focus that lowers tension limit by 100%, and Turkey has a focus that outright lets them join the Allies, which may explain those two. I'm not sure about Czech or Yugo.

I too main Italy and go for France early, however I do not ally with Germany, and instead wait until Czech drops their guarantees. As for Yugo, I declare war on them and Greece at the same time, which brings in Romania. If you play your cards right, you may be able to get Turkey in their as well. To prevent the UK from guaranteeing, I justify war goals on other countries like Ireland and Belgium which the UK will attempt to guarantee first, wasting their time and PP. If that is too cheezy for you, then I understand.

This is slightly unrelated, but after I defeat France in '37, I like to use my newly acquired Vietnam to help Japan with China in order to secure a very nice Chinese colony in mid '38. But again, I play alone mostly, and I am more concerned about getting China's resources and manpower for myself, rather than let Japan have them.

I would like to know the general timeline for all of this because I might be interested in adapting and using it with my friends.

[MindlessPirate]

Originally posted by Fargel_Linellar:

World tension requirements are different depending on the ideology.
https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/World_tension#Tension_required

All non-aligned nation can join the allies with 40 World tension.

Czechoslovakia won't be able to. However, Turkey joining the allies will raise it, probably making it peak to 80%

I know this, and Czechoslovakia is often the first to join the Allies even when my WT is below 80%. It isn't a screw up in the order of messages that all come at the same time either. Sometimes the other countries will be slow in coming and join the Allies days, weeks, or even a month after Czech joins.

[Citizen X]

Originally posted by MindlessPirate:

I would like to know the general timeline for all of this because I might be interested in adapting and using it with my friends.

I gotchu. This will be a long response, and this is all from the Italian perspective. TL:DR at the bottom

To start, I run Collaboration Government missions, which is optional. From day 1, I build an agency, get 3 spies, and run 2 collab missions on France, which complete on May 27th 1937 give or take a few days.

Edit: I also use my first 47 pp of the game to justify on Austria, and puppet them in September, however this will affect your German ally

After the 2nd mission begins, I start running collabs on China. The second Chinese mission should complete on May 1st of '37. In my last run, I learned that you must stay at peace with China until the missions are complete, or the collab bonuses will not work. This gives you until May '37 to go after something else; maybe Iraq or Iran. To fight China, I justify on Siam, and they will Join the united Front and put you at war with China. Simply invade from Vietnam you took from France.

Czech has always been an issue for me as well, so I usually wait for Germany to annex them, or wait until they complete the "Trust in the West" Focus, which drops the Yugoslav guarantee. If you want to get Turkey, Yugo, Greece, and Rom all in one go, then Justify on Turkey first, then Yugo using the "Take Claimed State" war goal, then complete the focus "War with Greece". Romania will join because of the Guarantees. To prevent the UK from guaranteeing, use the strategy I mentioned before, and Justify random war goals on other Democracies like Ireland. They will be expensive and take a long time, but you wont let them finish anyways, so save tons of PP.

I havent got this down perfectly yet, so I cant tell you the exact dates, but if you want to get it perfect you can definitely pull it off. Turkey war goal takes the longest, then Yugo war goal, and then Greece war goal is a 70 day focus. Yugo and Greece war goals never expire, so you have some breathing room, however the longer u wait with war goals, the longer you give UK to Guarantee. This is much easier without Turkey, because their war goal can take up to 365 days, meaning you would need to start this process a year before the invasion.

Try and stay with me here if you can. Plan with Germany for when they annex Czech. Thats when you can start the balkan war. Start Turkey justification 1 year before then, then do random war goals to throw off the UK, then go Yugo, and finally complete the Greece Focus. Very hard timing here. This usually happens late '38 early '39, but it can be earlier. All depends on how fast you can deal with Czech

After this, there really isnt much left to conquer. I run collaboration gov missions on Spain, and fight them last. If they are fascist, they wont be allowed to join the Allies, however it seems like they are non-aligned sometimes (or maybe its part of their focus tree, Ive never played Spain im not sure)

World Tension will be at 100% long before the balkan war, so you cant get hung up on that, but it should not matter anyways.

If youre willing to drop Turkey, this is alot easier. At 100% WT, the Yugoslavia war goal can take as little as 60 days, which you can line up easy with the Greek war goal.

If you finish the China war in June '38, then you can start the process for Yugo and Greece, which will force AI Czech to complete the focuses to drop guarantees, however 2 focuses are required and thats 140 days. So even without Germany, the balkan war will still happen in late 1938.

This was alot to read so I apologize, but I hope this helps you.

TL:DR Go France, then Iraq, then China, then Balkans (Yugo, Rom, Greece + Turkey), then finally get a free Spain. All before September 1939 :)

[Citizen X]

If you are willing to forget about Turkey in 1938, then I still have 2 alternatives for you.

Lets say you are at war with the Allies, and Turkey joins them. If you run 3 collaboration government missions on them (start early, like mid-1938), then you are still allowed to create a collaboration government in Turkey, even without a peace deal. So you can puppet them while still at war with the UK.

Another alternative would be to boost facist Ideology in Turkey, using the "Befriend Turkey" focus and using the spy network. Ive never done this and I dont know how long it will take, but fascist nations cant join the allies or be guaranteed by the UK

[Citizen X]

I ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up on my most recent run, but I walked away from China in June 1938 with 202 total industry, and thats before Yugo, Rom, Greece, Turkey or Spain.

[MindlessPirate]

It is a lot to read but i have a long attention span. I've read it all... O_O
Anyway, I said i was new in the original post and this is going to show here because I've only had the DLCs for about 50 to 100 of the hours i've played the game so far. I get a lot of the additions but spies are something that have eluded my understanding. What do Collaboration Government missions do Exactly?
I suppose i have a partial answer here in your last couple of replies (Collaboration Government missions create a Collaboration Government which puppets the intended countries) but how does it work specifically? and will a government be more susceptible to your depositions and be more willing to turn a blind eye towards your endeavors?
If not Collaboration Government missions then is there another mission type that would do this?
I suppose if there was then everyone would be using it to avert the Brit's ever trigger happy guarantee gun from Germany and it's antics but I would still love to know exactly how the spies work and what they can be used for.

[MindlessPirate]

BTW. I have another thread on the Paradox forums and I have part of my answer to my original question.

kettyo said:
Tension limit change for democracies joining defensive wars are somewhere in the patch notes. I think 1.4.something or 1.3.something.

FLUX2226 said:
Okay, that's actually really good to know. And the game doesn't tell you about it

https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Patch_1.3.X#1.3.3
(Third from last under "Bugfixes" of 1.3.3)
"Nations in defensive wars can now be invited to factions at 50% tension (or lower if their own rules allow)"

I still don't know why my first attempt at this stratagy worked but at least now i know that it is a hard rule effecting my games and not just some glitch that occurred when my game crashed.
I now have to figure a way around it.

[MindlessPirate]

Can spies help stop Britain from inviting other nations into the Allies?

[Citizen X]

Originally posted by MindlessPirate:

BTW. I have another thread on the Paradox forums and I have part of my answer to my original question.

https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Patch_1.3.X#1.3.3
(Third from last under "Bugfixes" of 1.3.3)
"Nations in defensive wars can now be invited to factions at 50% tension (or lower if their own rules allow)"

This is 100% your answer right there for why the countries are joining early. I did not know that either.

To answer your spy questions:

Collaboration Government missions do a few things.
1. they lower surrender limit, so with 2 collaboration missions in France, lets say, they will surrender 18-22% earlier, meaning you need to capture that many less victory points.
2. The missions give you bonus compliance upon capitulation, so when you annex a country, they start out at 30-45% compliance PER mission. This means less resistance and more importantly almost 0 losses from garrisons. 80% is needed to form a collaboration government, and 2 missions can net you 75% instantly.
3. Collaboration puppets are the best puppets possible. If you are playing a Fascist country like Italy, your puppets (Reichskomissariat) have -50% manpower, and only give 25% civilian industry, and 65% military industry. A Collaboration Government puppet has no manpower penalty, and gives over 75% of both Civilian and Military industry, as well as no building slot penalty or need for garrison. Its the best puppet status possible, and better than straight up occupation. (You cannot form a collaboration government in Yugo, so don't waste your time)
4. Like i mentioned before, you can create collaboration governments in annexed territory without peace deals.

As for your question about spies stopping British Guarantees; unfortunately that isnt an option as far as I am aware. But i definitely could be wrong. I will check for u and see

Good luck fellow Italian main

[MindlessPirate]

I wouldn't say i'm an Italian main, but i do like nations with Navy. Italy is definitely one of them, along with the Brits, ♥♥♥♥, and Americans. The Axis powers are just more interesting to play because of the challenge and Italy is closer to all it's fascist allies than Japan. If i were to play alone I would probably play japan because they have a bigger and (in terms of CVs) a more modern navy.
All the same I play Hoi4 with my friends a lot more often than not. Because of that (and the fact that my friends aren't always on at the same time) I play Italy more often. So when a third friend actually does join in I also end up playing Italy because i have the most experience with it.
I often find myself in this pickle and I suppose It might make me an Italian Main, but like i said, i would rather play Japan.

On a side note, does this surrender limit only count for your nation or can it be used by your allies as well? Say Germany uses it on France, Italy is in a faction with Germany and declares war without calling Germany in. Will France be easier to capitulate for Italy? Does Germany have to be invited into the war for it to work? Or does it only work for Victory points that Germany takes?

[MindlessPirate]

Japanese* apparently steam doesn't like the name J a p s.