24 marine divisions can't take a port in Florida

[Bammers]

It's 1944 and I'm playing as the German Reich. I control Europe, Russia, India, China, East Indies and the Malaya's. Japan is a puppet. My allies are Italy and Spain. I don't have Canada but I do control the Bahama's.

So, logically, I naval invade from the Bahama's and take the shortest route and try to take a port in Florida. I destroyed the US navy capital fleets. They only have a few minor cruisers left, I guess. I sunk around 8 CV's and 20 battleships. They went from 400 ships to around 100. Naval supremacy is not a problem. Air is still in balance because my fighters can't cover the whole Florida coastline.

However, using 1943 technology and the max upgrade in landing vessels, my marines can't take a port. I invade with 24 divisions (10marines, 6artillery and 1 heavy King Tiger). They don't succeed at taking any port (small or big, protected by forts or not). When I land in the tiles left and right and try to take the port from different sides, they can't break through. Also because the US keep bringing in fresh divisions.

What the hell am I doing wrong.

[bubbas]

Have you ever bothered to even read about combat width?

If not, then now might be a good time.

[Bammers]

Originally posted by bubbas:

Have you ever bothered to even read about combat width?

If not, then now might be a good time.

I've read quite a lot, yes. But as you know, there is much debate about 40 vs. 20. SO, are you saying 40 is too much?

[bubbas]

What I understod from your post was that you made a naval invasion with 24 40 width divisions into a single port province.

[Bammers]

Originally posted by bubbas:

What I understod from your post was that you made a naval invasion with 24 40 width divisions into a single port province.

yes, I did. So, should I drop the artillery and the heavy tank? Is there a penalty that I'm not aware off? How many divisions should I send in, then? And with what template?

[bubbas]

When you attack a province from a single direction, the combat width for that battle is 80. That means that only 2 out of your 24 divisions can participate in that battle. The remaining 22 divisions will just be in reserves and do nothing. Even if you did landing next to the port on both sides, your combat width would only become 160 meaning 4 out of 24 will do combat while 20 sit idle in reserves.

This is what I meant when I asked if you had read about combat width.

[Bammers]

Originally posted by bubbas:

When you attack a province from a single direction, the combat width for that battle is 80. That means that only 2 out of your 24 divisions can participate in that battle. The remaining 22 divisions will just be in reserves and do nothing. Even if you did landing next to the port on both sides, your combat width would only become 160 meaning 4 out of 24 will do combat while 20 sit idle in reserves.

This is what I meant when I asked if you had read about combat width.

ok, thank you. That helps. So, maybe if I change the division width to 20 and attack from two sides and maybe even directly on the port (240 combat width), it's only usefull to have 12 divisions doing the attack.

so the follow-up question is: do I really need the artillery in those divisions?

[The Notorious GSB]

Originally posted by Bammers:

Originally posted by bubbas:

When you attack a province from a single direction, the combat width for that battle is 80. That means that only 2 out of your 24 divisions can participate in that battle. The remaining 22 divisions will just be in reserves and do nothing. Even if you did landing next to the port on both sides, your combat width would only become 160 meaning 4 out of 24 will do combat while 20 sit idle in reserves.

This is what I meant when I asked if you had read about combat width.

ok, thank you. That helps. So, maybe if I change the division width to 20 and attack from two sides and maybe even directly on the port (240 combat width), it's only usefull to have 12 divisions doing the attack.

so the follow-up question is: do I really need the artillery in those divisions?

To expand a little further on what bubbas said...

Yes, you'll want the artillery. Probably not quite so much, though, and perhaps with some AT support. I'm a big fan of the support companies for Arty and AT, but logistics is an absolute must for marines.

Your best possible case scenario is to drop numerous smaller invasions in adjacent provines including a port. So, if you split your 24 divisions into three marines armies of 8 each, you can get more into the fight more efficiently across more regions and you'll also be able to prepare the invasions much, much faster.

Additionally, if you can, support them with shore bombardment from idle naval capital ships in the adjacent sea regions. It'll take some of the edge off the fact you've not got air superiority.

If all of the above fails, try invading somewhere completely unexpected (e.g. not Florida) and build a port when you get there. You'll need to hunker down and take a bit of a pounding from counter-attacking forces, because your port only builds when it's not being attacked, but it can be done.

[BlackSmoke 🏴‍☠]

To invade USA fast if done 44 or later:

Try to make naval invasion from two different directions or even more, i/e:

- Texas / Florida
- Texas / Florida / Louisiana
- Texas / Florida / Louisiana / Mississipi
- Texas / Florida / Louisiana / Mississipi / Alabama

Or even better, a combination:

- Texas / Florida / Louisiana + California / Oregon / Washington
- Texas / Florida / Louisiana + Maine /New Hampshire / Massachusetts

Or best:

- Texas / Florida / Louisiana + Maine / New Hampshire / Massachusetts + California / Oregon / Washington

IN EXAMPLE: Florida + Louisiana + Maine


General advices:

1.- As naval invasions are limited to a single naval invasion from a certain origin port, then a first naval invasion wave should be the main naval invasion consisiting on 5-12 divisions per origin port (depending on general situation) but maintaining in that port enough forces to reinforce if succesful (a port taken). Naval invasions could be layered. Depending also on general situation you could perform alternative and fast naval invasions as a second wave from such ports but using only 2-3 divisions for a reduced planing time. This second wave could have different coastal targets than first wave. Consider also a third naval invasion wave...

2.- If you don't find opposition in a naval invasion area try to advance as fast as possible. By using fast cavalry units you can advance and grab a massive land area. These are sacrificial units. I ussually use 1/2 cavs + MP, the same type of units used to supress unrest. Don't worry if they die. Their mission is to distract enemy forces. Enemy will move part pof their forces from repelling invasion to stop losing land. Cav/MP units never should be used as naval invasion forces, they must stay waiting in a secure port ready to be transported to the invasion area and then they must grab as much land as possible after being disembarked. This is specially useful in massive land areas like USA, URSS, etc... to win faster. Gambit: sacrifice weak units to get distraction/disruption and/or land/resources.

3.- Go to resources map, check enemy areas with valuable resources. Don't take random land, go exactly to those areas with valuable resources. Also as a priority try to take airports and cities. If you are surrounded stop and defend (do nothing). Enemy will have to distract valuable units to kill you. The more these weak units stay alive the more distraction you will cause. To alter enemy IA deployment considerably and to get a true impact in the way they react to your naval invasions, you need to grab land but also and more important: valuable resources/cities/airports

4.- Try to make an extensive use of strategic redeployment on your weak units even if they are in a certain risk to be killed. Even if units after moving strategically having null Org, they force computer IA to recalculate constantly their deployment. In example by using strategic redeployment you can get great results if done adequately, like this (Win Spanish Civil War in only 8 days):

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=854912512

How? If a weak unit it's advancing without opposition and suddenly an incoming enemy unit will halt their advance, don't continue that unit movement to fight, stop that unit and perform a strategical redeployment to a new place where no enemies present. Where is the trick? By having null Org after strategical redeployment they can't fight, BUT they can continue advancing if no enemy present in an adjacent area. This can be used as a disrupting method against enemy by constantly changing the vector you are advancing from. This requires extensive micro-management on every advancing unit.

5.- Not strictly necessary to take a port. After naval invasion try to set a defensive line (only defensive!) and inmediately build forts minimun lvl 2 or 3 or 4 in any occupied area, simulatenously build a port in any coastal area occupied. An area being attacked will halt the construction progress (doesn't matter, continue trying to build). I did an extensive use of this method to naval invade UK, Japan, USA in a lot of games.

To avoid this problem try to occupy as many land as possible to stablish a perimeter around a secure coastal area wich can't be attacked (usually a narrow land area or a corner). Building a port should be priority, then forts. The invasion may fail but giving you enough time to advance in any other invasion area.

6.- As a general rule it's BETTER to use 20 units 20-width THAN 10 units 40-width. The more units the more flexibility/mobility. Also as Bubbas said, by using 20-width units you get an optimal use of available total combat width.

7.- Breaktrough by using nukes when air superiority & nukes available.

[Bammers]

thank you, BlackSmoke, GSB and Bubbas. Much appreciated.

I'm fairly new to this game but I enjoy it very much. Some of the mechanics however take a long time to master. So we, newbies, rely on this type of advice. Searching around isn't always useful because of the many, many different opinions and playstyles. So please have some patience :)

[Monki]

They aren't marine templates.


You can't put anything in special forces templates but special forces and support companies. That's why they suffering a 15-30% attrition rate from naval invasion

[Rodi]

Use flat marines and maybe 1 arty to directly invade the port and use tanks or heavy inf to invade around the port so you can use these tank divisions to wreck the port garrison from land without naval penalties.
Also SHORE BOMBARDMENT

[rhettrongun]

If you're still open to other suggestions:

Going through Nova Scotia/New Brunswick is a good alternative. That's how I always start my US invasions, and it generally works. It will require very minimal marine support for landing as the defenses there are weak Canadians (even if it's past 44). The ports are on the small size, so you have to start increasing them as soon as you land and establish beach-heads.

In my experience, you can usually take Quebec City before the Americans really start mounting a counter. Don't push too hard into Maine until you have a reliable supply from your ports.

[Bammers]

Originally posted by rhettrongun:

If you're still open to other suggestions:

Going through Nova Scotia/New Brunswick is a good alternative. That's how I always start my US invasions, and it generally works. It will require very minimal marine support for landing as the defenses there are weak Canadians (even if it's past 44). The ports are on the small size, so you have to start increasing them as soon as you land and establish beach-heads.

In my experience, you can usually take Quebec City before the Americans really start mounting a counter. Don't push too hard into Maine until you have a reliable supply from your ports.

As it happens, I launched from Ireland and there was only 1 division defending the port. I'm taking the best defendable chunks of land without much opposition so far. thanks for the tip

[Kaisha]

Originally posted by BlackSmoke:

6.- As a general rule it's BETTER to use 20 units 20-width THAN 10 units 40-width. The more units the more flexibility/mobility. Also as Bubbas said, by using 20-width units you get an optimal use of available total combat width.

This is wrong. 40 width units are optimal and 1 40 width is better than 2x20 (provided you can cover whatever front you are on, obviously you don't want gaps). 1st is better use of support. 2nd is a funny way the combo algorithm works. Each turn each division in the battle will randomly fire on one enemy division. Because of the way defense/breakthrough work, focusing fire on 1 enemy division is more effective than focusing 1/2 on 2 enemy divisions. A 40 width division will always do maximum dmg each turn, while 2x20 will have less of a chance (ie. if they split and attack 2 different divisions). Likewise 4x10 is even less efficient.

Also for naval invasions the best is just to stack marines + support and a little arty. Unlike real life, tanks are uselss in naval invasions (and yes I know the US used tanks all over the pacific in naval invasions, this is HOI4... nothing makes sense).

But really air superiority > all in this game.

[BlackSmoke 🏴‍☠]

Originally posted by Kaisha:

Originally posted by BlackSmoke:

6.- As a general rule it's BETTER to use 20 units 20-width THAN 10 units 40-width. The more units the more flexibility/mobility. Also as Bubbas said, by using 20-width units you get an optimal use of available total combat width.

This is wrong...

This is just your opinion. But not forcefully the right opinion.

I repeat:
6.- As a general rule it's BETTER to use 20 units 20-width THAN 10 units 40-width.

About this, good comment:
But really air superiority > all in this game.