would Italy be a better place if they didn't join germany in ww2?

[Lo Burattino]

just a friendly question of a possible alternate history

[Der Epic-Skin]

Escrito originalmente por Espek:

Escrito originalmente por Lo Burattino vuole vino:

just a friendly question of a possible alternate history

Italy was the reason that germany lost ww2. italians were the worst soldiers in ww2 so that german soldiers that were much much more brave than italians, had to fight all the time for themselves and for italians. According to wikipedia, germany had to postpone invasion of russia from early may to end of june - thus losing 2 warm months - to literally save italian soldiers from greeks. Greeks were 10 times smaller amount, had much worse weapons and military education and still they beat italians so bad that germans had to save italians soldiers and beat greeks for italians.

Bullocks. It wasn't their soldiers fault entirely, it was the fault of

a.) incompetent commanders who earned their place through relations and their political stance instead of skill.

b.) lack of rescources.

c.) thus a lack of motorization and very weak tanks.

d.) outdated equipment (I can't imagine that their equipment was much better than the greek equipment, they still partially fought with WW1 Era rifles)

The myth of the "bad" italian soldier stems from these factors. It's the most rascist thing ever to just say "italian soldiers were bad just because they were italian".

[Lo Burattino]

Escrito originalmente por Captain Methyl:

a.) incompetent commanders who earned their place through relations and their political stance instead of skill.

agreed except for some guys that actually did a good work, like Giovanni Mess and Italo Balb

[dzantor]

Escrito originalmente por Captain Methyl:

Escrito originalmente por Espek:

Italy was the reason that germany lost ww2. italians were the worst soldiers in ww2 so that german soldiers that were much much more brave than italians, had to fight all the time for themselves and for italians. According to wikipedia, germany had to postpone invasion of russia from early may to end of june - thus losing 2 warm months - to literally save italian soldiers from greeks. Greeks were 10 times smaller amount, had much worse weapons and military education and still they beat italians so bad that germans had to save italians soldiers and beat greeks for italians.

Bullocks. It wasn't their soldiers fault entirely, it was the fault of

a.) incompetent commanders who earned their place through relations and their political stance instead of skill.

b.) lack of rescources.

c.) thus a lack of motorization and very weak tanks.

d.) outdated equipment (I can't imagine that their equipment was much better than the greek equipment, they still partially fought with WW1 Era rifles)

The myth of the "bad" italian soldier stems from these factors. It's the most rascist thing ever to just say "italian soldiers were bad just because they were italian".

I am not trying to insult any personal feelings, i am just telling facts. All you wrote is totally wrong, cause you wrote only about your hurt feelings of pride and no facts what so ever, and because of 1 single fact:
greeks that had 10 times worse situation than italian soldiers in everything (for instance italia 60 mill pop, greeks 5 mill pop, much less weapons, almost no planes or tanks, much worse military education, greeks had no military schools for generals and officers at that time) greeks beat italian soldiers so bad that italian soldiers had to run back all the way to albanian coast to save themselves, and greeks even tok half albania keepinig beating italian soldiers. Greeks beat italians soldiers so bad that germany had to send their forces to save italians from greeks - germans beat greeks in a several days.

I am not trying to insult any personal feelings, i am just telling facts, read wiki articles. Anyone who lived in that time describes italian soldiers were very bad. I just went to wikipedia to read maybe i remembered wrong, but here quotes from wiki

"Allied press reports of Italian military prowess in the Second World War were almost always dismissive. British wartime propaganda trumpeted the destruction of the Italian 10th Army by a significantly smaller British force during the early phase of the North African Campaign."

or for example historian Kenneth Macksey wrote in his book in 1970 "the British threw out the Italian Chicken only to let in the German Eagle". Though i think that no matter how bad italians were in ww2, calling them words like chicken is not nice at all and should be prohibited such insulting, no nice to insult like that especially by historians in books. I am against insults in generally.

or another quote from wikipedia "Italy's military failures against France, Greece, Yugoslavia and in the African Theatres of war shook Italy's new prestige mightily." So no matter how passionfull you write about your hurt feelings, facts are facts.

[Lendoo]

Escrito originalmente por Espek:

Escrito originalmente por Captain Methyl:

Bullocks. It wasn't their soldiers fault entirely, it was the fault of

a.) incompetent commanders who earned their place through relations and their political stance instead of skill.

b.) lack of rescources.

c.) thus a lack of motorization and very weak tanks.

d.) outdated equipment (I can't imagine that their equipment was much better than the greek equipment, they still partially fought with WW1 Era rifles)

The myth of the "bad" italian soldier stems from these factors. It's the most rascist thing ever to just say "italian soldiers were bad just because they were italian".

I am not trying to insult any personal feelings, i am just telling facts. All you wrote is totally wrong, cause you wrote only about your hurt feelings of pride and no facts what so ever, and because of 1 single fact:
greeks that had 10 times worse situation than italian soldiers in everything (for instance italia 60 mill pop, greeks 5 mill pop, much less weapons, almost no planes or tanks, much worse military education, greeks had no military schools for generals and officers at that time) greeks beat italian soldiers so bad that italian soldiers had to run back all the way to albanian coast to save themselves, and greeks even tok half albania keepinig beating italian soldiers. Greeks beat italians soldiers so bad that germany had to send their forces to save italians from greeks - germans beat greeks in a several days.

I am not trying to insult any personal feelings, i am just telling facts, read wiki articles. Anyone who lived in that time describes italian soldiers were very bad. I just went to wikipedia to read maybe i remembered wrong, but here quotes from wiki

"Allied press reports of Italian military prowess in the Second World War were almost always dismissive. British wartime propaganda trumpeted the destruction of the Italian 10th Army by a significantly smaller British force during the early phase of the North African Campaign."

or for example historian Kenneth Macksey wrote in his book in 1970 "the British threw out the Italian Chicken only to let in the German Eagle". Though i think that no matter how bad italians were in ww2, calling them words like chicken is not nice at all and should be prohibited such insulting, no nice to insult like that especially by historians in books. I am against insults in generally.

or another quote from wikipedia "Italy's military failures against France, Greece, Yugoslavia and in the African Theatres of war shook Italy's new prestige mightily." So no matter how passionfull you write about your hurt feelings, facts are facts.

The discussion isn't even about what you said about how Italian soldiers are bad, you're either salty or you are under-educated

[Girthquake]

Escrito originalmente por Dodgem:

They probably would have been crushed by Germany, Italy wasnt ready for War.
Idk if you mean joined the allies or stayed neutral. Italy might have been invaded for 'ethnic cleansing' by the Third Reich

Nobody really was at the time, not even the Nazis

[Der Epic-Skin]

Escrito originalmente por Espek:

Escrito originalmente por Captain Methyl:

Bullocks. It wasn't their soldiers fault entirely, it was the fault of

a.) incompetent commanders who earned their place through relations and their political stance instead of skill.

b.) lack of rescources.

c.) thus a lack of motorization and very weak tanks.

d.) outdated equipment (I can't imagine that their equipment was much better than the greek equipment, they still partially fought with WW1 Era rifles)

The myth of the "bad" italian soldier stems from these factors. It's the most rascist thing ever to just say "italian soldiers were bad just because they were italian".

I am not trying to insult any personal feelings, i am just telling facts. All you wrote is totally wrong, cause you wrote only about your hurt feelings of pride and no facts what so ever, and because of 1 single fact:
greeks that had 10 times worse situation than italian soldiers in everything (for instance italia 60 mill pop, greeks 5 mill pop, much less weapons, almost no planes or tanks, much worse military education, greeks had no military schools for generals and officers at that time) greeks beat italian soldiers so bad that italian soldiers had to run back all the way to albanian coast to save themselves, and greeks even tok half albania keepinig beating italian soldiers. Greeks beat italians soldiers so bad that germany had to send their forces to save italians from greeks - germans beat greeks in a several days.

I am not trying to insult any personal feelings, i am just telling facts, read wiki articles. Anyone who lived in that time describes italian soldiers were very bad. I just went to wikipedia to read maybe i remembered wrong, but here quotes from wiki

"Allied press reports of Italian military prowess in the Second World War were almost always dismissive. British wartime propaganda trumpeted the destruction of the Italian 10th Army by a significantly smaller British force during the early phase of the North African Campaign."

or for example historian Kenneth Macksey wrote in his book in 1970 "the British threw out the Italian Chicken only to let in the German Eagle". Though i think that no matter how bad italians were in ww2, calling them words like chicken is not nice at all and should be prohibited such insulting, no nice to insult like that especially by historians in books. I am against insults in generally.

or another quote from wikipedia "Italy's military failures against France, Greece, Yugoslavia and in the African Theatres of war shook Italy's new prestige mightily." So no matter how passionfull you write about your hurt feelings, facts are facts.

Dude stop being so salty about italians. Why do you hate them so much?

So you're saying ALL my points are false? And that the italians went in with space-marine-gear and ONLY lost because they are cowards?

You're delusional if you believe that. ITALY. WASN'T. READY. FOR. WAR. Neither equipment-wise nor industrial-wise. And Mussolini told that to Hitler. The invasion of Greece was a horrible mistake from their political leadership.

And it's not about MY feelings, I'm defending the Italians here because YOU always try to pull them into the dirt. You tried that in another discussion aswell. And I think I'm done here. Did even ONCE in your life compare a majority of italian tanks to British ones? Because that would already close the case. The Italians were beaten in a 10:1 superiority because they had way too few vehicles and were thus in a severe disadvantage. Even Rommel was defending the italian soldiers' qualities back then, despite military failures of Italy.

[Daliena]

Escrito originalmente por Espek:

Escrito originalmente por Captain Methyl:

Bullocks. It wasn't their soldiers fault entirely, it was the fault of

a.) incompetent commanders who earned their place through relations and their political stance instead of skill.

b.) lack of rescources.

c.) thus a lack of motorization and very weak tanks.

d.) outdated equipment (I can't imagine that their equipment was much better than the greek equipment, they still partially fought with WW1 Era rifles)

The myth of the "bad" italian soldier stems from these factors. It's the most rascist thing ever to just say "italian soldiers were bad just because they were italian".

I am not trying to insult any personal feelings, i am just telling facts. All you wrote is totally wrong, cause you wrote only about your hurt feelings of pride and no facts what so ever, and because of 1 single fact:
greeks that had 10 times worse situation than italian soldiers in everything (for instance italia 60 mill pop, greeks 5 mill pop, much less weapons, almost no planes or tanks, much worse military education, greeks had no military schools for generals and officers at that time) greeks beat italian soldiers so bad that italian soldiers had to run back all the way to albanian coast to save themselves, and greeks even tok half albania keepinig beating italian soldiers. Greeks beat italians soldiers so bad that germany had to send their forces to save italians from greeks - germans beat greeks in a several days.

I am not trying to insult any personal feelings, i am just telling facts, read wiki articles. Anyone who lived in that time describes italian soldiers were very bad. I just went to wikipedia to read maybe i remembered wrong, but here quotes from wiki

"Allied press reports of Italian military prowess in the Second World War were almost always dismissive. British wartime propaganda trumpeted the destruction of the Italian 10th Army by a significantly smaller British force during the early phase of the North African Campaign."

or for example historian Kenneth Macksey wrote in his book in 1970 "the British threw out the Italian Chicken only to let in the German Eagle". Though i think that no matter how bad italians were in ww2, calling them words like chicken is not nice at all and should be prohibited such insulting, no nice to insult like that especially by historians in books. I am against insults in generally.

or another quote from wikipedia "Italy's military failures against France, Greece, Yugoslavia and in the African Theatres of war shook Italy's new prestige mightily." So no matter how passionfull you write about your hurt feelings, facts are facts.

"The Italian army invaded Greece on 28 October, before the Italian ultimatum had expired. The invasion was a disaster, the 140,000 troops of the Italian Army in Albania encountering an entrenched and determined enemy. The Italians had to contend with the mountainous terrain on the Albanian–Greek border and unexpectedly tenacious resistance by the Greek Army."

Population doesn't come into it because not only did we not see the entire Italian army committed to the attack on Greece at first, population is irrelevant to how many are actually in the military. The defender also always has the advantage and it's never easy to assault a fortified defense in the mountains.

"While originally content to simply let the Italians wear the Greeks down and (he predicted) finish the war in the summer of 1941, Adolf Hitler decided in December 1940 that potential British intervention in the conflict represented a threat to Germany's rear. This caused him to come to the aid of his Axis ally. German build-up in the Balkans accelerated after Bulgaria joined the Axis on 1 March 1941. British ground forces began arriving in Greece the next day. On 6 April, the Germans invaded northern Greece ("Operation Marita"). The Greeks had deployed the vast majority of their men into a mutually costly stalemate with the Italians on the Albanian front, leaving the fortified Metaxas Line with only a third of its authorized strength."

Germany could've left it be, except that Allied intervention was a danger and they didn't want to allow a foothold for their soldiers in Greece from which to threaten the Axis.

War propaganda is not 'facts', it's entire purpose is to discredit your enemy and make them seem all the easier to beat so as to raise morale.

Italy also had outdated equipment, and the Greeks not having military schools mattered little when Italian officers were not promoted based on merit or skill, but just who they knew. You make it sound like Italy had the finest military minds in command, they really, really didn't.. Because politics played a far larger role in getting promoted.

"The Italian army suffered 102,064 combat casualties (with 13,700 dead and 3,900 missing) and fifty thousand sick; the Greek suffered over 90,000 combat casualties (including 14,000 killed and 5,000 missing) and an unknown number of sick."

For attacking an enemy dug in in the mountains with ♥♥♥♥♥♥ gear and ♥♥♥♥♥♥ commanders, those are not exactly the worst of numbers.

[dzantor]

Escrito originalmente por Captain Methyl:

Escrito originalmente por Espek:

I am not trying to insult any personal feelings, i am just telling facts. All you wrote is totally wrong, cause you wrote only about your hurt feelings of pride and no facts what so ever, and because of 1 single fact:
greeks that had 10 times worse situation than italian soldiers in everything (for instance italia 60 mill pop, greeks 5 mill pop, much less weapons, almost no planes or tanks, much worse military education, greeks had no military schools for generals and officers at that time) greeks beat italian soldiers so bad that italian soldiers had to run back all the way to albanian coast to save themselves, and greeks even tok half albania keepinig beating italian soldiers. Greeks beat italians soldiers so bad that germany had to send their forces to save italians from greeks - germans beat greeks in a several days.

I am not trying to insult any personal feelings, i am just telling facts, read wiki articles. Anyone who lived in that time describes italian soldiers were very bad. I just went to wikipedia to read maybe i remembered wrong, but here quotes from wiki

"Allied press reports of Italian military prowess in the Second World War were almost always dismissive. British wartime propaganda trumpeted the destruction of the Italian 10th Army by a significantly smaller British force during the early phase of the North African Campaign."

or for example historian Kenneth Macksey wrote in his book in 1970 "the British threw out the Italian Chicken only to let in the German Eagle". Though i think that no matter how bad italians were in ww2, calling them words like chicken is not nice at all and should be prohibited such insulting, no nice to insult like that especially by historians in books. I am against insults in generally.

or another quote from wikipedia "Italy's military failures against France, Greece, Yugoslavia and in the African Theatres of war shook Italy's new prestige mightily." So no matter how passionfull you write about your hurt feelings, facts are facts.

Dude stop being so salty about italians. Why do you hate them so much?

So you're saying ALL my points are false? And that the italians went in with space-marine-gear and ONLY lost because they are cowards?

You're delusional if you believe that. ITALY. WASN'T. READY. FOR. WAR. Neither equipment-wise nor industrial-wise. And Mussolini told that to Hitler. The invasion of Greece was a horrible mistake from their political leadership.

And it's not about MY feelings, I'm defending the Italians here because YOU always try to pull them into the dirt. You tried that in another discussion aswell. And I think I'm done here. Did even ONCE in your life compare a majority of italian tanks to British ones? Because that would already close the case. The Italians were beaten in a 10:1 superiority because they had way too few vehicles and were thus in a severe disadvantage. Even Rommel was defending the italian soldiers' qualities back then, despite military failures of Italy.

Wow you putting your personal feelings and ideas about italians on me, since i never said italians or other country soldiers were cowards, italians are like any other people, i have not hate or love for them or other countries, why should i care if any country solderis in ww2 were cowards or not - it's their personal choice, why should i care about it, i am talking about facts, read wikipedia. Stop putting on other people your personal feelings and ideas, that's very low tactics when you have no facts, you blame other for things they never said, like you blame me.

Why you compare italians soldiers with british, since i was comparing italians with greeks that had 10 times worse situation than italians.

[Daliena]

Escrito originalmente por Espek:

Italy was the reason that germany lost ww2. italians were the worst soldiers in ww2 so that german soldiers that were much much more brave than italians, had to fight all the time for themselves and for italians.

Escrito originalmente por Espek:

Wow you putting your personal feelings and ideas about italians on me, since i never said italians or other country soldiers were cowards,

you blame other for things they never said, like you blame me.

Why you compare italians soldiers with british, since i was comparing italians with greeks

Hhhhhhhmmmmmmm.

[dzantor]

Escrito originalmente por Daliena:

Escrito originalmente por Espek:

Italy was the reason that germany lost ww2. italians were the worst soldiers in ww2 so that german soldiers that were much much more brave than italians, had to fight all the time for themselves and for italians.

Escrito originalmente por Espek:

Wow you putting your personal feelings and ideas about italians on me, since i never said italians or other country soldiers were cowards,

you blame other for things they never said, like you blame me.

Why you compare italians soldiers with british, since i was comparing italians with greeks

Hhhhhhhmmmmmmm.

I am not good in english and it was bad word choice, ofc i meant much much more effective and forward pushing for victory. Ofc i wasn't talking about personal cowardness or not.

[Daliena]

Escrito originalmente por Espek:

Escrito originalmente por Daliena:

Hhhhhhhmmmmmmm.

I am not good in english and it was bad word choice, ofc i meant much much more effective and forward pushing for victory. Ofc i wasn't talking about personal cowardness or not.

German troops also had vastly superior equipment, tanks, aircraft and more, better training, more experience, far more skilled commanders..

But surely none of that factored into it at all.

[dzantor]

Escrito originalmente por Daliena:

Escrito originalmente por Espek:

I am not good in english and it was bad word choice, ofc i meant much much more effective and forward pushing for victory. Ofc i wasn't talking about personal cowardness or not.

German troops also had vastly superior equipment, tanks, aircraft and more, better training, more experience, far more skilled commanders..

But surely none of that factored into it at all.

So? I wasn't comparing italinas to british or germans, i was comparing italin soldiers to greeks that had 10 times worse situation than italians.

[dzantor]

To be clear, i wasn't talking if italian or other country solderies in ww2 were cowards or not - why in the world i would care about it, it's personal choice of a single person no matter which people he comes from. I was talking about what soldiers were worst according to facts in ww2. So I am out of this discussion since many here put their personal ideas and feelings on opponents instead of discussing facts.

[Lo Burattino]

Escrito originalmente por Espek:

Wow you putting your personal feelings and ideas about italians on me, since i never said italians or other country soldiers were cowards

everytime you talked about italians you always said that italians soldiers sucked and were the worst in ww2, everytime I told you it wasnt the soldiers you just kept repeating that it was them and that they were stupid

and now, just like everytime you put your OFFTOPIC opinion here too, making my whole thread go offtopic, you idiot

Escrito originalmente por Espek:

i wasn't talking if italian or other country solderies in ww2 were cowards or not - why in the world i would care about it,

I was talking about what soldiers were worst according to facts in ww2.

you just did it again

[dzantor]

Escrito originalmente por Lo Burattino vuole vino:

Escrito originalmente por Espek:

Wow you putting your personal feelings and ideas about italians on me, since i never said italians or other country soldiers were cowards

everytime you talked about italians you always said that italians soldiers sucked and were the worst in ww2, everytime I told you it wasnt the soldiers you just kept repeating that it was them and that they were stupid

and now, just like everytime you put your OFFTOPIC opinion here too, making my whole thread go offtopic, you idiot.

wow, you are simply liar. Because your personal hurt feelings about how bad italian soldiers were in ww2, you think you can lie and insult other. I am above continuing to talk to liar like you. I am out of here.