8 Width divisions as China?

[LEON HEEEEEELP!@!!!111]

Title. Are 8 width divisions worth it? 1939 start with China just gives you 8 width juntuans. I've been using 10 width as China until I go for the offensive, however I am always unable to build enough artillery for 7-2 Infantry.

So the question is would 8 width be any good? I figure since 40 combat width = 5 Divisions can join combat etc.

[LEON HEEEEEELP!@!!!111]

Originally posted by MeDaDaddy:

Depending if you go left or right on the Mass Assault Doctrine tree there's also potentially a 20% supply reduction or more Org for your Infantry and other goodies (Org loss reduction when moving for example).

Plus you only need to pump out Infantry equipment so early research can be focused on just that and doctrines so more of your divisions will be using the best equipment.
25-batallion Infantry will easily do for the Japanese and even the Soviets if you attack at the right time.
Don't even need support brigades really until you have the factories and research slots.
Don't need artillery either really, although I found towed AA useful in a support slot once I'd invented it & had spare production capacity.
Adding line artillery gives a very small soft attack and breakthrough bonus but you lose hard attack, piercing and Org, need more supplies and could be making more machine guns, grenades and bazookas with those factories!

As support brigades for a few Corp mid to later game I usually go Engineers, Recon, Signals, AA and either Logistics or Artillery. But research & production priority is in keeping the Inf Equipt as up to date as possible.
The line slots stay as 25 Infantry batallions.

If you want to put the Chromium you get from the conquered SU to good use early-mid game then you can stick a heavy tank or variant into your Cavalry template for a "quick" (6mph) Division.

Note: As you know, the FM and general bonuses & traits can make a massive difference too, depending on what skills they get when levelling up & traits you assign. I usually keep 1 general with no purchased traits until they hit level 8 or 9 then promote them and give them the Logistics and extra Armies traits since it's easier to level a General than a FM.

endgame-equipment template
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1371429584


in defensive combat
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1371823365

on the offence, different game, same template
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1395647134

EDIT: I'd missed the "1939" start in your OP somehow, so apologies, I've only used the '36 start.
I use all the starting divisions and whatever others i can produce to overpower all the Warlords, Sinkiang and PRC before July '37 when Japan instigates the Marco Polo Bridge incident and I need all hands guarding the ports and Bejing.
No way I could do that in time if I dismantled all the starting Divisions, since if I'm still fighting other China factions when the Japanese kick it all off, it gets tricky.

EDIT2:
Over 4.5k defence in this battle:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1462406343

Another offence screenie. Of the supporting Divisions, 1 has support slots only (blade icon), the other (arrow icon) line artillery & AA and are somewhat worse in offence, even with less of a mallus from enemy air superiority.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1462408042

First of all, thank you or your excellent reply. I will be trying your template out.
You mentioned focusing on infantry equipment, however I never research the Type 24 at least until I have 100+ 10 Width Divisions and the war with the nips has already started because I lose all my production.

Also, damn I didn't expect the soft attack to be so high. I guess with WTT and the artillery nerf, not even support artillery is worth it?

You also mentioned primary focus on doctrines too. China starts off with only 2 research slots. Wouldn't it be wise to also dedicate some to industry and electronics?.

I usually always kill the warlords, (In the best case scenario, I want all of them to refuse except the guangxi clique) and then I take care of Mao. However with this scenario I always only have 2 focuses left before Japan triggers the Marco Polo Bridge Incident. These I use on accquiring the third research slot.

EDIT:

What is your opinion on deleting all divisions, training ony one and then modifying the template to spam out 10 width ones? I've found out that I can easily spam anywhere between 40 - 60 divisions on normal difficulty.

However that changes on Elite difficulty, making it a lot harder.

[MeDaDaddy]

Originally posted by K U O M I N T A N G:

Originally posted by MeDaDaddy:

Depending if you go left or right on the Mass Assault Doctrine tree there's also potentially a 20% supply reduction or more Org for your Infantry and other goodies (Org loss reduction when moving for example).

Plus you only need to pump out Infantry equipment so early research can be focused on just that and doctrines so more of your divisions will be using the best equipment.
25-batallion Infantry will easily do for the Japanese and even the Soviets if you attack at the right time.
Don't even need support brigades really until you have the factories and research slots.
Don't need artillery either really, although I found towed AA useful in a support slot once I'd invented it & had spare production capacity.
Adding line artillery gives a very small soft attack and breakthrough bonus but you lose hard attack, piercing and Org, need more supplies and could be making more machine guns, grenades and bazookas with those factories!

As support brigades for a few Corp mid to later game I usually go Engineers, Recon, Signals, AA and either Logistics or Artillery. But research & production priority is in keeping the Inf Equipt as up to date as possible.
The line slots stay as 25 Infantry batallions.

If you want to put the Chromium you get from the conquered SU to good use early-mid game then you can stick a heavy tank or variant into your Cavalry template for a "quick" (6mph) Division.

Note: As you know, the FM and general bonuses & traits can make a massive difference too, depending on what skills they get when levelling up & traits you assign. I usually keep 1 general with no purchased traits until they hit level 8 or 9 then promote them and give them the Logistics and extra Armies traits since it's easier to level a General than a FM.

endgame-equipment template
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1371429584


in defensive combat
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1371823365

on the offence, different game, same template
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1395647134

EDIT: I'd missed the "1939" start in your OP somehow, so apologies, I've only used the '36 start.
I use all the starting divisions and whatever others i can produce to overpower all the Warlords, Sinkiang and PRC before July '37 when Japan instigates the Marco Polo Bridge incident and I need all hands guarding the ports and Bejing.
No way I could do that in time if I dismantled all the starting Divisions, since if I'm still fighting other China factions when the Japanese kick it all off, it gets tricky.

EDIT2:
Over 4.5k defence in this battle:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1462406343

Another offence screenie. Of the supporting Divisions, 1 has support slots only (blade icon), the other (arrow icon) line artillery & AA and are somewhat worse in offence, even with less of a mallus from enemy air superiority.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1462408042

First of all, thank you or your excellent reply. I will be trying your template out.
You mentioned focusing on infantry equipment, however I never research the Type 24 at least until I have 100+ 10 Width Divisions and the war with the nips has already started because I lose all my production.

Also, damn I didn't expect the soft attack to be so high. I guess with WTT and the artillery nerf, not even support artillery is worth it?

You also mentioned primary focus on doctrines too. China starts off with only 2 research slots. Wouldn't it be wise to also dedicate some to industry and electronics?.

I usually always kill the warlords, (In the best case scenario, I want all of them to refuse except the guangxi clique) and then I take care of Mao. However with this scenario I always only have 2 focuses left before Japan triggers the Marco Polo Bridge Incident. These I use on accquiring the third research slot.

EDIT:

What is your opinion on deleting all divisions, training ony one and then modifying the template to spam out 10 width ones? I've found out that I can easily spam anywhere between 40 - 60 divisions on normal difficulty.

However that changes on Elite difficulty, making it a lot harder.

Thanks for constructive reply.
Sorry for late response; (excuses!)

Regarding deleting the starting divisions and recycling the equipment, I usually use them to fight the warlords and they all do OK, since warlord templates are the same as them. I can see the advantage of having 10-width divisions to fight them though.
The XP earned in those fights is enough to start producing 10 battalion (20 width before the Doctrine bonus) Infantry to fight the Japanese with.
Also, the Leaders commanding more Divisions that are fighting get the decent traits quicker it seems to me especially in encirclements, which are easier to achieve with more divisions in the field.
Have never really considered deleting them tbh ...may try it :)

My preference is to Puppet Shanxi (and not call them into the war with Japan so as to keep the front line small and in Bejing & the coasts) and Guangxi Clique (for all that steel in trade for 1 civ factory). Annexing the rest, as you state, gives you the extra factories for the extra research slot.

The focus path to Subdue the Warlords and the Maoists gives some bonus stability but do take almost a year to get, and from what I've seen, if you haven't finished fighting the Warlords that don't just become Puppets (seems completely random) then they will join in with the ♥♥♥♥ after Marco Polo Bridge Incident which can make that event too interesting!

The 20 Width Divisions defend better than the "slimmer" templates (more HP?) and as mentioned it seems easier to train the leaders the more Divisions are fighting.

Further focii are headed to the Army Reform and getting the bonuses for fighting on core.

Research priority for me is just all into Infantry Equipment (1 line of 88's, 1 line of 24s switching out the 88s to the Type 24s as efficiency grows) Production, Doctrine, then Radio & the research bonus ones. Construction to me isn't so critical initially since we have so few Civ factories. Same with the research bonus really with so few research slots...I'd rather have the bonuses when I have 4 or 5 slots.
When Marco Polo Bridge kicks off I may just have the 2nd Doctrine (pocket defence?) but have some Type 24s in use.

I usually play very defensive against Japan because I want a lot of XP to train my generals.

I usually only counter-attack when I have enough Divisions to "encircle" Mengkukuo with an advance North and hold the border provinces, then move in West towards Shanxi and North towards Mongolia to obliterate the Divisions stationed there.
Then ditto to "encircle" Manchukuo by cutting off the Korean peninsula.

Then the Japanese surrender and redistribute the Divisions and attack the SU or the Raj.

I also haven't played on "elite" difficulty yet.

[Dreyfus0414]

Originally posted by andersrlarsen:

i usually spam out 12 width divisions, until i have about 168 (48 protecting harbours and costal tiles, 120 divisions at the front), then i expand combat width instead of building more divisions.
start with 10 inf, add eng, rec and art support, then expand to 30 width and add log support.

how you design your templates, you first have to decide which land doctrine you want to use.

you do understand that 12 width and 30 width both don't fit into battles properly, because they are either 80,120,160,200,240,280,320, 360, or 400 if you somehow attack from that many sides.

[LEON HEEEEEELP!@!!!111]

Originally posted by MeDaDaddy:

Originally posted by K U O M I N T A N G:

First of all, thank you or your excellent reply. I will be trying your template out.
You mentioned focusing on infantry equipment, however I never research the Type 24 at least until I have 100+ 10 Width Divisions and the war with the nips has already started because I lose all my production.

Also, damn I didn't expect the soft attack to be so high. I guess with WTT and the artillery nerf, not even support artillery is worth it?

You also mentioned primary focus on doctrines too. China starts off with only 2 research slots. Wouldn't it be wise to also dedicate some to industry and electronics?.

I usually always kill the warlords, (In the best case scenario, I want all of them to refuse except the guangxi clique) and then I take care of Mao. However with this scenario I always only have 2 focuses left before Japan triggers the Marco Polo Bridge Incident. These I use on accquiring the third research slot.

EDIT:

What is your opinion on deleting all divisions, training ony one and then modifying the template to spam out 10 width ones? I've found out that I can easily spam anywhere between 40 - 60 divisions on normal difficulty.

However that changes on Elite difficulty, making it a lot harder.

Thanks for constructive reply.
Sorry for late response; (excuses!)

Regarding deleting the starting divisions and recycling the equipment, I usually use them to fight the warlords and they all do OK, since warlord templates are the same as them. I can see the advantage of having 10-width divisions to fight them though.
The XP earned in those fights is enough to start producing 10 battalion (20 width before the Doctrine bonus) Infantry to fight the Japanese with.
Also, the Leaders commanding more Divisions that are fighting get the decent traits quicker it seems to me especially in encirclements, which are easier to achieve with more divisions in the field.
Have never really considered deleting them tbh ...may try it :)

My preference is to Puppet Shanxi (and not call them into the war with Japan so as to keep the front line small and in Bejing & the coasts) and Guangxi Clique (for all that steel in trade for 1 civ factory). Annexing the rest, as you state, gives you the extra factories for the extra research slot.

The focus path to Subdue the Warlords and the Maoists gives some bonus stability but do take almost a year to get, and from what I've seen, if you haven't finished fighting the Warlords that don't just become Puppets (seems completely random) then they will join in with the ♥♥♥♥ after Marco Polo Bridge Incident which can make that event too interesting!

The 20 Width Divisions defend better than the "slimmer" templates (more HP?) and as mentioned it seems easier to train the leaders the more Divisions are fighting.

Further focii are headed to the Army Reform and getting the bonuses for fighting on core.

Research priority for me is just all into Infantry Equipment (1 line of 88's, 1 line of 24s switching out the 88s to the Type 24s as efficiency grows) Production, Doctrine, then Radio & the research bonus ones. Construction to me isn't so critical initially since we have so few Civ factories. Same with the research bonus really with so few research slots...I'd rather have the bonuses when I have 4 or 5 slots.
When Marco Polo Bridge kicks off I may just have the 2nd Doctrine (pocket defence?) but have some Type 24s in use.

I usually play very defensive against Japan because I want a lot of XP to train my generals.

I usually only counter-attack when I have enough Divisions to "encircle" Mengkukuo with an advance North and hold the border provinces, then move in West towards Shanxi and North towards Mongolia to obliterate the Divisions stationed there.
Then ditto to "encircle" Manchukuo by cutting off the Korean peninsula.

Then the Japanese surrender and redistribute the Divisions and attack the SU or the Raj.

I also haven't played on "elite" difficulty yet.

Alright, thank you for your reply.

I have another thread up which debates wether you should or shouldn't hold the Yellow River.
Is it worth to hold the River with level 2 forts or not? I mean you've got a decent 1 1/2 years before Japan attacks which means you could potentially focus on Industry.

Also, what exactly triggers the United Front? I've seen the United Front form without China doing the actual focus. I've also seen an event trigger sometimes where Chiang gets captured and you have the option to form the United Front.

Im asking this since this way I don't have to waste about 4 focuses just to get some stability and create the United Front. Most MP games don't allow for China to re unify (at least the ones I've seen / played) with that you are forced to waste 4 focuses just for some miserable stability.

Im asking this because in MP I really have strain as China on what to do and how much time I have to prepare.

Not holding the yellow river will allow me to build up more industry in the insides of the country, thus allowing me to lose more land.

I've determined that I will basically always lose the river no matter what. Either he breaks through or does me with a naval invasion through shandong.

[MeDaDaddy]

Never had the United Front yet so can't help out there. It may only form if you haven't finished fighting/subduing all the available factions before the Marco Polo Bridge Incident?

The focii for Subduing the Warlords means that they either become your Puppet or don't ...it's random...all may bow before your might, or 2 or 3 ...random...if they say "no" to being Puppeted by the focus you gain a War Goal and so fight them and either Annex or Puppet when you're done.
Further expenditure of political power (via Decisions) integrates any Puppets which gives you their generals and then their troops as well as their factories.

Your front line against Japan and the Japanese puppets will only be at the 6 tiles near Bejing (and all your coastal tiles) provided you Puppet Shanxi and do not call them into the war vs Japan.

[LEON HEEEEEELP!@!!!111]

Originally posted by MeDaDaddy:

Never had the United Front yet so can't help out there. It may only form if you haven't finished fighting/subduing all the available factions before the Marco Polo Bridge Incident?

The focii for Subduing the Warlords means that they either become your Puppet or don't ...it's random...all may bow before your might, or 2 or 3 ...random...if they say "no" to being Puppeted by the focus you gain a War Goal and so fight them and either Annex or Puppet when you're done.
Further expenditure of political power (via Decisions) integrates any Puppets which gives you their generals and then their troops as well as their factories.

Your front line against Japan and the Japanese puppets will only be at the 6 tiles near Bejing (and all your coastal tiles) provided you Puppet Shanxi and do not call them into the war vs Japan.

I've determined all that already, IMO it is way to based on RNG. I've had a match where they literally all accepted, another one where they all straight up refused. As for the United Front, I'm saying this since I am not exactly a powerful Nation at the start of the match and through my focuses I really need to fix issues like army corruption or inflation.

Doing the United Front takes 4 focuses in exchange for some stability boost. Im basically asking if there is another way of getting the United Front via an event without doing the focuses. I've seen that happen before.

[MeDaDaddy]

Ahh I see.
I'll bow out now then since I always Subjugate the Warlords rather than go for United Front.
'Cos I want Shanxi and Guangxi as Puppets initially.
And want the resources of the SU.
Since the starting Divisions (including the 8-Width ones) plus whatever others you pump out are enough to defeat the warlords and give enough XP to get a better template to fight the ♥♥♥♥ with :)

[Mikey]

Why stay on mass assault? Superior firepower is better both in defense and on the offense

You may not get the full 25 division template and the 20% less supply usage, but that doesnt matter since EACH division will be more effect AND a 20 division 40 width still uses less supply than a 25 division with the supply reduction

[jackhickman999]

Originally posted by DirectRuleFromNanking:

Also, what exactly triggers the United Front? I've seen the United Front form without China doing the actual focus. I've also seen an event trigger sometimes where Chiang gets captured and you have the option to form the United Front.

The clique offers it later to China as part of an event. You can agree to it to form the united front without doing the focus.

[MeDaDaddy]

Originally posted by Mikey:

Why stay on mass assault? Superior firepower is better both in defense and on the offense

You may not get the full 25 division template and the 20% less supply usage, but that doesnt matter since EACH division will be more effect AND a 20 division 40 width still uses less supply than a 25 division with the supply reduction

Look at the last 2 posted screenshots with units in combat.
4.6k defence, 222 breakthrough and 900 odd soft attack in those specific battles and 0.56 supply use per Division.

Staying with Mass Assault you're using Manpower and Infantry Equipment not fancy stuffs like artillery.
As noted above by the OP, you've got 2 research slots to begin with (and 10 Mil Factories).
I struggle to keep even "elite" units fully equipped with the latest tech Inf Equipt even with 3 full lines working at maximum-ish.
Again, see the screenshot "Woot Defence" above for what the units are equipped with.
To me for a high manpower low tech country the Mass Assault doctrine is more viable.
Plus, if you want, you can always change Doctrine once you have Artillery researched if that's the way you want to go.

Definately bowing out now, me :)

EDIT: May not be ideal, but does the job until endgame
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1470484186