I don't get Black Ice

[coffeemm8]

A lot of it just seems superfluous

[Renown]

So... Blackice in HoI4 is mostly a little overwhelming... but mainly in one area - production.

If you ever played HoI3 you'll know that much of that game was actually more automated... except for the battles there, which were tremendously involved.

Blackice in HoI3 basically expanded technology, events, and unit design (mostly through technology, rather than direct production). It enhanced the game wonderfully and is my preferred method of playing HoI3.

In HoI4, they kind of did the exact opposite of HoI3. They automated the combat to a much bigger degree (for the worse, overall, in my opinion), while expanding events (through focuses, though they are still hit or miss in many places), and economic decisions (tech is mostly still the same as 3). In HoI4 you have a bit easier of a time building infrastructure/factories, but a MUCH more involved time in the actual production of equipment for your army, navy, and airforce.

The side effect of this whole change is that Black Ice is almost a direct port of HoI3 Blackice, meaning a LOT of the mechanics aren't actually well suited for HoI4. Where building your economy was more or less ignored in HoI3 (your factories did EVERYTHING, so you just built factories and conquered resources), here it's crucial to maintain resource gain FOR factory productivity. Of course, Blackice needlessly complicates this as a consequence of their technology tree and a lack of forethought. Several different types of clothing equipment, several different types of factories, several different types of guns/etc just for basic infantry units.

It's cumbersome and annoying, and I WANT to love it but I can't. It also makes the game lag like mad when you have THOUSANDS of factories for HUNDREDS of different types of gear across the game all being tracked by your computer by mid-late game.

Honestly, avoid black ice. It's a nightmare here, and I say that with respect. I'd love it if they just reduced the needless production complication. (Building two different types of horses? really? SMGs and rifles seperately for basic infantry...wtf)

However, there is a midway mod currently out called Total War, which basically is Blackice lite. One of the creators is an absolute arrogant nutcase, but the mod overall is pretty good. If you find vanilla too easy and boring, and blackice too needlessly complicated... Total War is the way to go. They dumb down a LOT of the more interesting Blackice mechanics with the SS/units/politics, but add a few events and more importantly fix up the annoying production issues of Blackice while keeping the technology tree mostly the same.

(Also keeping my eye on a mod not yet released which I've temporarily forgotten the name of, which looks to do much like Total War, but is built from the ground up for HoI4, starting in 1932 or something and going until much later).

[GoldenTalon]

Agree with OP. Why should I have to research infantry clothes, etc. And I don't think it does much for the AI either - partly because they can't because the dll code is locked up at PDX.

[Renown]

Originally posted by GoldenTalon:

Agree with OP. Why should I have to research infantry clothes, etc. And I don't think it does much for the AI either - partly because they can't because the dll code is locked up at PDX.

Actually the AI will often build better units than the player in BI AND Total War simply because the player can't be arsed to build the terrain specific units he needs. Not sure if it's because the modders created preset templates for AI, or if the AI builds them himself... but in both mods you need to worry about such divisions unless you don't mind taking MASSIVE attrition losses. Or the AI gets bonuses to ward off attrition with regular units (which actually sounds familiar and more logical) so the AI doesn't get punished for building stupid units, but the player does... *shrug*

[coffeemm8]

I really want to get into HOI3's black ice but the set up is such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ chore.

[Renown]

Originally posted by coffeelingfine:

I really want to get into HOI3's black ice but the set up is such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ chore.

what about it is a chore?

I agree the AAR is a nightmare in HoI3, and often even a game as someplace like Italy is a good half hour set up before you hit play... but on the otherhand, once you get things rolling it's quite fun.

BlackIce basically DOUBLED the intensity of HoI3, and made technological choices and political choices MUCH more important (your units too, but not as much) and included awesome events (that HoI4 and 3 greatly miss out on), but beyond the units I'm not sure it's really a chore.

I just got frustrated the last time I played it after trying to set up the Italian AAR for a half hour, and then realized "oh ♥♥♥♥ I didn't turn the mod on" and turned the mod on and was like... oh great, this will take an hour.

HoI4's ONLY real benefit is that it's so easy to just... start. Takes five-ten minutes MAX to set up your nation's front lines.

in Hoi4, Blackice is just not well suited to the game because it complicates the already complicated rather than expand on the shallow.

[coffeemm8]

Originally posted by Renown:

Originally posted by coffeelingfine:

I really want to get into HOI3's black ice but the set up is such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ chore.

what about it is a chore?

I agree the AAR is a nightmare in HoI3, and often even a game as someplace like Italy is a good half hour set up before you hit play... but on the otherhand, once you get things rolling it's quite fun.

BlackIce basically DOUBLED the intensity of HoI3, and made technological choices and political choices MUCH more important (your units too, but not as much) and included awesome events (that HoI4 and 3 greatly miss out on), but beyond the units I'm not sure it's really a chore.

I just got frustrated the last time I played it after trying to set up the Italian AAR for a half hour, and then realized "oh ♥♥♥♥ I didn't turn the mod on" and turned the mod on and was like... oh great, this will take an hour.

HoI4's ONLY real benefit is that it's so easy to just... start. Takes five-ten minutes MAX to set up your nation's front lines.

in Hoi4, Blackice is just not well suited to the game because it complicates the already complicated rather than expand on the shallow.

I was exaggerating a bit, but I just don't like all the pop ups I have to go through at the beginning.

One of them I always skip is the leader backstory thing.

[Renown]

Ah, well can't help you there. The "story" pop ups are my favorite part of BlackIce. If you don't like the events included there you probably are missing the point. Though... HoI3 also had other mods that came close with historical events, without going to such detail. I forget the names of them though...