Oppose Stalin

[The Cunning Fox (raZoleg)]

If there is a whole Focus for opposing Hitler, why can't I do the same for Stalin in the beginning of the game? Why isn't there a Democracy or Monarchist tree? Why are there three communist trees instead and you get Kerensky as a "Democratic Leader" (really?)

Also, what bs is this? "Occupied countries" include Goergia and Ukraine and Armenia, all of which are not occupied, but are part of the Russian Empire. Why are they listed as "ossupied"?

[↯Zindy⛦]

Originally posted by razoleg:

If there is a whole Focus for opposing Hitler, why can't I do the same for Stalin in the beginning of the game? Why isn't there a Democracy or Monarchist tree?

There is a way to oppose Stalin, which is taking the Trotskyite path. And forgive me, but the second question is absolutely ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ absurd; by the time the game begins in 1936 the bolsheviks had already collectivised most major industries and agriculture. As a result unions and worker committees were handed a lot of power and supported the bolsheviks in return. Once the bolsheviks seized power in 1917 (or end of the russian CW if you prefer) any opportunity of a "monarchist" to gain a foothold was eliminated completely; also keep in mind that Trotsky was the only member of the Central Committee that factionalized successfully in the CPSU by forming a "workers opposition" (which was banned originally by Lenin but continued). There is so much to say here, but you get the gist, there was no monarchists in the central committee. On top of that Kirovs assassination led to Stalins tight grip on power (see Leningrad deligation).


As far as Karensky and the Trudoviks go----
funny how the Trudoviks are represented in the game although they were crushed when they tried to overthrow the bolsheviks and most of the "volunteer army" either defected to the provisional government or bolsheviks. So karensky is clearly more of a placeholder figure then anything else. An actual tree dedicated to him would be the equivalent of Otto Strasser building an opposition to overthrow Hitler, it is almost impossible.

Originally posted by razoleg:

Also, what bs is this? "Occupied countries" include Goergia and Ukraine and Armenia, all of which are not occupied, but are part of the Russian Empire. Why are they listed as "ossupied"?

Russian empire? You must mean as a releasable nation correct? I assume it is added to create a post cold war scenario for the allies, just my two cents.

[The Cunning Fox (raZoleg)]

Originally posted by Zindai:

Originally posted by razoleg:

If there is a whole Focus for opposing Hitler, why can't I do the same for Stalin in the beginning of the game? Why isn't there a Democracy or Monarchist tree?

There is a way to oppose Stalin, which is taking the Trotskyite path. And forgive me, but the second question is absolutely ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ absurd; by the time the game begins in 1936 the bolsheviks had already collectivised most major industries and agriculture. As a result unions and worker committees were handed a lot of power and supported the bolsheviks in return. Once the bolsheviks seized power in 1917 (or end of the russian CW if you prefer) any opportunity of a "monarchist" to gain a foothold was eliminated completely; also keep in mind that Trotsky was the only member of the Central Committee that factionalized successfully in the CPSU by forming a "workers opposition" (which was banned originally by Lenin but continued). There is so much to say here, but you get the gist, there was no monarchists in the central committee. On top of that Kirovs assassination led to Stalins tight grip on power (see Leningrad deligation).


As far as Karensky and the Trudoviks go----
funny how the Trudoviks are represented in the game although they were crushed when they tried to overthrow the bolsheviks and most of the "volunteer army" either defected to the provisional government or bolsheviks. So karensky is clearly more of a placeholder figure then anything else. An actual tree dedicated to him would be the equivalent of Otto Strasser building an opposition to overthrow Hitler, it is almost impossible.

Originally posted by razoleg:

Also, what bs is this? "Occupied countries" include Goergia and Ukraine and Armenia, all of which are not occupied, but are part of the Russian Empire. Why are they listed as "ossupied"?

Russian empire? You must mean as a releasable nation correct? I assume it is added to create a post cold war scenario for the allies, just my two cents.

"♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ absurd", several of the Royal family members were alive in the 30s, so it isn't anywhere near the description you gave it.

And I suppose SA and Gestapo didn't have the power the bolsheviks had in the 30s? Your reply holds no meaning as I can retort with exactly the same reasons, but about Germany. Civil War started in 1918, not ended in 1917 by the way.

No it wasn't. There was a planned raid into the Crimea and a Sea Invasion by General Kutepov in the 20s and 30s during the peasant and cossack revolts.

Trotsky wasn't even there, he immigrated and 4th International was a feeble and fractured organisation that couldn't hold up to anyone or anything.

There were Monarchists in Europe - the entire White Guard or ROVS, including the Cossacks. Just to let you know - von Pannwitz had almost 300,000 of them in the SS during the WW2.

I'm sorry, but what you've said is extremely fishy, starting with the statement that Civil War ended in 1917 when it didn't even start. It just shows Developers and your lack of knowledge of Russian history.

The true intent I see here is that developers want Russia to stay commie so that everyone can fight against it, whilst giving Germans a window out of Nazism in the beginning of the game, which is a revisionist ♥♥♥♥ move. Wermacht supported Fuhrer wholeheartedly, it was only in 1944 when they finally realised they would all be hanged for the atrocities they've caused against Russian civilians that they tried to assassinate him.

About 2 million Russians fought against USSR during World War 2, it was essentially like a Civil War and including democratic/monarchist trees for Russia would have been much much more feasible than making a nearly sci-fi German generals coup in the middle of the 30s!

This obviously has "revisionist" written all over it, since Germans are now trying to prove that they were never nazis and that they've hated Hitler since the beginning.

[Grenzer]

Originally posted by Zindai:

There is a way to oppose Stalin, which is taking the Trotskyite path. And forgive me, but the second question is absolutely ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ absurd; by the time the game begins in 1936 the bolsheviks had already collectivised most major industries and agriculture. As a result unions and worker committees were handed a lot of power and supported the bolsheviks in return. Once the bolsheviks seized power in 1917 (or end of the russian CW if you prefer) any opportunity of a "monarchist" to gain a foothold was eliminated completely; also keep in mind that Trotsky was the only member of the Central Committee that factionalized successfully in the CPSU by forming a "workers opposition" (which was banned originally by Lenin but continued). There is so much to say here, but you get the gist, there was no monarchists in the central committee. On top of that Kirovs assassination led to Stalins tight grip on power (see Leningrad deligation).

You are very incorrect. Trotsky had absolutely nothing to do with the Workers Opposition, which was led by Alexander Shlyapnikov. The Workers Opposition advocated a kind of syndicalism, more power to the trade unions and the idea that the unions themselves should direct production. Trotsky was fiercely opposed to this.

Trotsky was hardly the only 'factionizer' either. There was the workers opposition, the right opposition, united opposition, Workers Group, and more.

It also never continued after being banned. Individual members continued voicing criticisms of the government, but only in their capacity as individuals. The Stalinists labeled this "factionalism" as part of their drive to outlaw dissent. As a coordinated faction, it was finished by 1925 IIRC.

[The Cunning Fox (raZoleg)]

Why don't we also include Kropotkin and Makhno, and let the ♥♥♥♥ really hit the fan. Russia was the most politically diverse and liberal country in the world in the beggining of the 20th Century. Plenty of political movements, much better than the "Stalin"/"4th International" and "Kerensky" focus trees. Especially the Kerensky being leader of Liberals.

Although, both were dead by '36, Anarchist uprising could be a thing if you take Kuban' revolts into account.

[↯Zindy⛦]

Originally posted by razoleg:

"♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ absurd", several of the Royal family members were alive in the 30s, so it isn't anywhere near the description you gave it.

And I suppose SA and Gestapo didn't have the power the bolsheviks had in the 30s? Your reply holds no meaning as I can retort with exactly the same reasons, but about Germany. Civil War started in 1918, not ended in 1917 by the way.

No it wasn't. There was a planned raid into the Crimea and a Sea Invasion by General Kutepov in the 20s and 30s during the peasant and cossack revolts.

Trotsky wasn't even there, he immigrated and 4th International was a feeble and fractured organisation that couldn't hold up to anyone or anything.

There were Monarchists in Europe - the entire White Guard or ROVS, including the Cossacks. Just to let you know - von Pannwitz had almost 300,000 of them in the SS during the WW2.

I'm sorry, but reading waht you've said is extremely fishy, saying that Civil War ended in 1917 when it didn't even start. It just shows Developers and your lack of knowledge of Russian history.

The true intent I see here is that developers want Russia to stay commie so that everyone can fight against it. Whilst giving Germans a window out of Nazism in the beginning of the game is a revisionist ♥♥♥♥ move.

Yes and how much power did they have? zero. The political instutions are completely different between germany and the soviet union. Hitler was guided to power through the social democrats completly the opposite of the bolsheviks.

I never said the Russian civil war ended in 1917, i said they seized power because Kerensky was deposed then, (OR if you do disagree then i'm sure we can at least count the end the RCW).

Kutepov died in 1930 and the battles in the Crimea area were a part of the RCW, not post civil war, and certainly not within HOI4's timeline so it is pointless to mention him.

I will concede your point about post war white russians, but how could they possibly come back and overthrow the firmly standing central comittee? The only option would be for those SS divisions to overthrow the USSR militarily, they could never do it alone without outside help from the west, especially in 1936.

[The Cunning Fox (raZoleg)]

One of them was the co-leader of all Russian Immigration with Baron Wrangel, Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolaevich. If you don't know something - refrain from posting, lest you insult the history of Russia.

Bolsheviks were social democrats, in fact - they are exactly the same. That's the reason the communist countries have "democratic" in their names like DPRK.

Originally posted by Zindai:

Once the bolsheviks seized power in 1917 (or end of the russian CW if you prefer) .

Yeah, you "never said" that.

Kutepov wanted to make a landing in Crimea and Rostov post-exodus. I know my Civil War history.

[Knight]

"Revisionist"
It's a simulation game..?

[The Cunning Fox (raZoleg)]

Originally posted by EON Knight O' Italy:

"Revisionist"
It's a simulation game..?

It's not about simulation, it's about the focus trees that are made to be saying something along the lines of "Germans always had the chance to not be Nazi, Russians were always commie bаstards".

USSR had more uprisings than any country in history. Literally millions died fighting bolshevism. In Germany, little over 100,000 died fighting Nazism. The rest embraced it completely, even though you'd at least scratch your head at ideology that requires one to destroy other races.

[Knight]

Originally posted by razoleg (The Cunning Fox):

Originally posted by EON Knight O' Italy:

"Revisionist"
It's a simulation game..?

It's not about simulation, it's about the focus trees that are made to be saying something along the lines of "Germans always had the chance to not be Nazi, Russians were always commie bаstards".

USSR had more uprisings than any country in history. Literally millions died fighting bolshevism. In Germany, little over 100,000 died fighting Nazism. The rest embraced it completely, even though you'd at least scratch your head at ideology that requires one to destroy other races.

Maybe they wanted the Russian focus tree to focus more on Stalin's other Communist enemies and his cult of personality.
You could always put in a Democratic Reformer and start a civil war that way?

[The Cunning Fox (raZoleg)]

There is a democratic reformer, but look - the tree for democracy is missing. Whislt there are two focus trees that oppose Nazism for Nazi Germany, the Monarchist and the Democratic tree. What am I supposed to "focus" on once Kerensky comes to power? The other, "Trotskiy" tree, is not feasible, but I am repeating myself here. 4th international and Trotskiy were powerless, toothless ideologists by 1936.

They are making the "Purge" sound like it was justified, as if Trotskists really infiltrated the USSR army, whilst in reality the purge was done to get rid of any opponents to Stalin, the cases were fabricated and the criminal confessions were beaten out of the army officers.

[chaosguy]

In Soviet russia, Stalin opposes YOU !

[The Cunning Fox (raZoleg)]

Originally posted by chaosguy:

In Soviet russia, Stalin opposes YOU !

Wow, some fresh humour from Yakov Pokhis worthy of a bingo hall in Florida. Don't be a loser like him, don't use "Soviet Reversal". You don't want that.

[Knight]

Originally posted by razoleg (The Cunning Fox):

There is a democratic reformer, but look - the tree for democracy is missing. Whislt there are two focus trees that oppose Nazism for Nazi Germany, the Monarchist and the Democratic tree. What am I supposed to "focus" on once Kerensky comes to power? The other, "Trotskiy" tree, is not feasible, but I am repeating myself here. 4th international and Trotskiy were powerless, toothless ideologists by 1936.

They are making the "Purge" sound like it was justified, as if Trotskists really infiltrated the USSR army, whilst in reality the purge was done to get rid of any opponents to Stalin, the cases were fabricated and the criminal confessions were beaten out of the army officers.

Have you actually used this tree?
When doing the events for the purge, one of the options literally says "Forced confessions and fabricated evidence is not reliable!"
The only reason Germany got those trees is due to the popularity of mods like Kaiserreich, in where everyone has gotten a permaboner for bringing back the Kaiser.
These trees don't reflect any of Paradox's personal views. They're there because the players asked for them. Maybe if you make enough of a ruckus, they'll think about including a Democratic path for the SU, and if not, there are mods.

[The Cunning Fox (raZoleg)]

Originally posted by EON Knight O' Italy:

The only reason Germany got those is due to the popularity of mods like Kaiserreich, in where everyone has gotten a permaboner for bringing back the Kaiser.

Ah... I see.

Originally posted by EON Knight O' Italy:

These trees don't reflect any of Paradox's personal views. They're there because the players asked for them. Maybe if you make enough of a ruckus, they'll think about including a Democratic path for the SU, and if not, there are mods.

*makes a lot of ruckus* is it helping?

I want my Democratic and Monarchist Trees for SU, I want them NOW! NAO!

[Knight]

It'd take a while if you actually got through to the Devs. They apparently already have the next 2 DLCs planned out. I think it's Nordic then Middle East.

Yeah, but as I was saying about the great purge tree:

"Party members can be trusted. This paranoia must cease."
Set country flag no_political_purge

"False documents and forced confessions are not proof."
Set country flag purge_1_no_purge

"This has gone too far. Soon we will have killed all of our own."
Set country flag purge_2_no_purge


https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Soviet_events