Hearts of Iron IV

Hearts of Iron IV

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Pira 6/abr./2018 às 0:32
Why is the AI so bad after almost 2 years?
Compared to hoi3's it still seems bad.
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Exibindo comentários 7690 de 94
The AI's that can beat humans in games are often being run on hardware that is superior to what any player would have. Not to mention that fact that chess is far simpler than a game like HOI4. Also, humans are much better at long term planning that AI's right now. If Paradox wanted to make a game that played at 1 frame per hour, I'm sure it could make an AI that is better at managing battles and planning, but that's not a game that anyone wants to play.
Última edição por Shepard-Commander; 9/abr./2018 às 21:21
emcdunna 9/abr./2018 às 21:33 
Well I also think most game companies don't have the budget (or the market incentive) to afford the price of a good ai.

The best game ai i've ever seen in a strategy game is in Ultimate general civil war, but it's definitely alone in that regard.

A good ai needs to not just be good at a game but also play the part the user wants. You don't want an ai just to be smart or hard to beat, it also has to be immersive

There's just no easy (and by that I mean cheap) way to make that
acur1231 10/abr./2018 às 0:38 
Can we make this an AI improvement thread so we can actually tell them what we want to see from the AI? Not the production AI, but in terms of moving troops and fighting.

I want the UK and US to not naval invade as long as there is a normal port they can land in. If there is no port, they can start to think about naval invading(by the way, air strikes should damage a naval invasion more than it does now). They can land in any Axis held territory. The landing will be in a port, by a full army of 24 divisions most of the time, with many more in reserve. If this fails, they will land near to a port but not in it next time, and then quickly move to sieze the port. They will only attempt a landing in an area where they have naval supremacy, and they will anchor their fleet next to the combat zone once the fighting starts. They will also only attempt a landing if they have air superiority, or if the Germans have less than 100 ground attack planes, naval or tactical bombers assigned to the region. Once they have a port, the divisions will start flowing in and you have your second front.

Alternatively, I would like to see the allies trying a paratroop invasion, landing paras around a port then attacking it, and once they sieze it, they can sail their men in. This would be useful if the German player has done the Atlantic Wall focus.
Foxman8472 10/abr./2018 às 1:05 
Escrito originalmente por GoldenTalon:
At least they are also getting more QA testers.

Boy oh boy would I not want to be a QA tester working for Paradox. Two releases worth of "new stuff" without fixing the old mess would drive me up the wall.
Senseo1990 10/abr./2018 às 4:30 
They'd have to hire more people to work on the AI. That costs money. They dont want to spend that money. Hence we're stuck with a Strategy Game that requires no strategy in singleplayer, because the AI doesn't work. Thats why.
emcdunna 10/abr./2018 às 10:10 
Again why I think that a 3rd party company built entirely around making a generic ai for other companies to use would be the best solution to all games like this.

The brand of this ai would then be recognized as high quality and would sell more games for the companies who pay to use them.
Shōgun 10/abr./2018 às 11:52 
other than creating a thousand generals with a thousand generals the AI isn't THAT bad
PS: and with a thousand frontlines
Última edição por Shōgun; 10/abr./2018 às 11:53
GoldenTalon (Banido(a)) 10/abr./2018 às 11:57 
Escrito originalmente por emcdunna:
Again why I think that a 3rd party company built entirely around making a generic ai for other companies to use would be the best solution to all games like this.

The brand of this ai would then be recognized as high quality and would sell more games for the companies who pay to use them.

This is a great idea - could co-brand it like Dolby did for audio systems.
spike2071 10/abr./2018 às 12:06 
Escrito originalmente por emcdunna:
Again why I think that a 3rd party company built entirely around making a generic ai for other companies to use would be the best solution to all games like this.

The brand of this ai would then be recognized as high quality and would sell more games for the companies who pay to use them.

This is a terrible idea. It would require a true AI, and once we've created a true AI, humanity is doomed. Why do you want to destroy humanity? WHY?!?!

Seriously, good in theory, but impossible today. Google with all their billions spent can't perfect a driving car, and that has about 5 things it needs to do. Stop, go forward, go backward, turn left, turn right. Granted, it needs to take in a significant amount of input to make those decisions, but it still can't do it better than (or even as good as) a human. Yet. Getting an affordable and adaptable AI is a long way away, and would require a true AI, which would, of course, destroy humanity.
lakeclouds (Banido(a)) 10/abr./2018 às 12:10 
Escrito originalmente por spike2071:
Escrito originalmente por emcdunna:
Again why I think that a 3rd party company built entirely around making a generic ai for other companies to use would be the best solution to all games like this.

The brand of this ai would then be recognized as high quality and would sell more games for the companies who pay to use them.

This is a terrible idea. It would require a true AI, and once we've created a true AI, humanity is doomed. Why do you want to destroy humanity? WHY?!?!

Seriously, good in theory, but impossible today. Google with all their billions spent can't perfect a driving car, and that has about 5 things it needs to do. Stop, go forward, go backward, turn left, turn right. Granted, it needs to take in a significant amount of input to make those decisions, but it still can't do it better than (or even as good as) a human. Yet. Getting an affordable and adaptable AI is a long way away, and would require a true AI, which would, of course, destroy humanity.

We'll finish our first enjoyable Hoi4 game and then be destroyed. Stephen Hawking was right!
GoldenTalon (Banido(a)) 10/abr./2018 às 12:30 
Escrito originalmente por spike2071:

LOL. I thought you hated Paradox because they make too much money. Now they're a company in decline. Which is it?

They listen to their customers. Chain of Command was added due to customer demand. The popularity of the Kaisserreich mod was so much they added the ability to bring back the Kaiser, in addition to expanding the German Focus tree in general. They added Decisions based on feedback. Added back in impassable terrain because customers wanted it. Customers complained about the lack of value in the Field Marshal season pass...they upped it from 2 to 4 DLCs. I could go on.

They listened to their customers so much they made a game more popular than any other iteration by streamlining it. But even that's bad, because now it's "dumbed down."

I love reading your posts. Your over the top blind hatred makes me laugh so much. A heartfelt thanks.

Over the top blind hated? Really?

The features they added were extra fluff on top of a broken game. Chain of command is useless if the front line mechanism doesn't work.

How many threads on here and elsewhere are asking for PDS to fix the AI? Has PDS responded here or elsewhere? No.

Just stick to the facts @spike and stop the ad hominem attacks.
Última edição por GoldenTalon; 10/abr./2018 às 12:30
Dindomir 10/abr./2018 às 12:41 
In all threads there are people saying that the AI isn't that bad. And for them, it isn't. Whether that is because you have higher standards (which are currently probably unatainable) or yours is bugged, I don't know. But Paradox is obviously doing something because I have seen many people say that while the AI sucked pre 1.5, it is very much ok now.
emcdunna 10/abr./2018 às 12:44 
Escrito originalmente por spike2071:
Escrito originalmente por emcdunna:
Again why I think that a 3rd party company built entirely around making a generic ai for other companies to use would be the best solution to all games like this.

The brand of this ai would then be recognized as high quality and would sell more games for the companies who pay to use them.

This is a terrible idea. It would require a true AI, and once we've created a true AI, humanity is doomed. Why do you want to destroy humanity? WHY?!?!

Seriously, good in theory, but impossible today. Google with all their billions spent can't perfect a driving car, and that has about 5 things it needs to do. Stop, go forward, go backward, turn left, turn right. Granted, it needs to take in a significant amount of input to make those decisions, but it still can't do it better than (or even as good as) a human. Yet. Getting an affordable and adaptable AI is a long way away, and would require a true AI, which would, of course, destroy humanity.

True AI? No you don't need that

I'm A software engineer and part time game developer. What you really want from an "AI" In game is just to play a game, which is not that hard to actually automate. I think it could even be done generically and built in such a way where you could reuse the fundamental "game playing" AI in different games.

Concepts like "objectives" and "game moves" with different "decision weights" could all be incorporated. For how does any game have any AI now? Obviously something exists, it isnt hardcoded to move troop X to location Y.

There's a MASSIVE difference between an AI for driving a car (which has video input in real time trying to avoid accidents and interpret road conditions, etc.) and simply playing a video game which can be interfaced with directly (getting data like X number of troops, a list of nations that share your ideology, neighboring regions, etc.).

Like building a spaceship to get to mars is very different than flying a kite on a string. I can build a kite.
_2 10/abr./2018 às 14:11 
Because it's easier to code in tech trees and cosmetics than a real AI which necessitate developpers with actual skills. Sadly people with this kind of skill in the field of AI will not work for game companies because the pay is poor.
spike2071 10/abr./2018 às 15:32 
Escrito originalmente por GoldenTalon:
Over the top blind hated? Really?

The features they added were extra fluff on top of a broken game. Chain of command is useless if the front line mechanism doesn't work.

What they added was based on customer feedback. Your entire argument is that they don't listen to their customers.

Escrito originalmente por GoldenTalon:
How many threads on here and elsewhere are asking for PDS to fix the AI? Has PDS responded here or elsewhere? No.

The AI improves with each iteration. I rolled back to the earliest build on my laptop, and it was a big difference. You can see what they're working on in various dev diaries (where the devs will sometimes reply), and the patch notes delineate what AI changes were made. Are you expecting them to reply on every single thread to just say, "we're working on it"?

Escrito originalmente por GoldenTalon:
Just stick to the facts @spike and stop the ad hominem attacks.

I listed nothing but facts about the argument at hand (Paradox listening to their customers).

Regarding the "blind hatred" comment, that is easily verifiable. The large majority of your posts are how the game is broken when that is obviously not the case for the majority of users. You deride the game in almost every post. You've literally posted F Paradox (or something similar). I think any reasonable person would conclude you hate Hears of Iron 4 and Paradox. I'm sure if I looked through your post history I would probably find you admitting it (I think we had an argument a while back where you did).

Your inability to see anything positive about the devs or the game makes you blind, as evidenced by my previous post. Your claim was that Paradox never listens to its customers. I pointed out several examples where they did. And you said, no it still sucks.

The fact that I expressed how much laughter your posts elicit was probably unnecessary, and I apologize.
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