How do you deorg tanks instantly?

[vidkunquisling]

I've noticed that in certain situations, you're able to deorganize enemy tanks from 100% to 0% instantly. How does this happen? I'm assuming it has to do with tank destroyers, but I've done tests with them and have come up empty.

By the way, I found a really efficient division for germany: 9 medium tanks, 5 motorized, 2 heavy AA, 2 heavy TD, and 3 heavy tanks, + signal, engineer, recon, maintenance. Medium tank divisions cannot penetrate it, but it is not as expensive as a heavy tank division.

[vidkunquisling]

The org on that template is fine lol and the instant deorg thing happens to tank divisions with really high org anyways

[andersrlarsen]

I will only say one thing about that division;
heavy aa, heavy td, heavy armor (ALL heavy or super heavy variants) should only be used for defence, not for offense.

of course, there might be some scenarios in mp games that this template could be used, but i wouldnt call that an efficient division, and its kinda easy to counter.
and with all those heavies, you also loose ALL speed, which basicly is what blitz krieg is all about.
with a base value of 22 org (no doctrine, 1941 researched tech), it has low org. a easy thing to remember, is that org for armor divisions should not be less than 30. for this template, there is only mobile warfare (mobile infantry) that can get this template up to 30 org.


better to use 13-7 or 14-6 m.armor and motorised.
if you want to have more piercing, then put in 1 m.td instead of a m.arm. (this will even penetrate your template.)

[Ryan]

I would never use that template. It has too much wasted production for what it can do. Also, why use motorized with Heavy Tanks? You may has well use infantry since it will be really slow.

[glythe]

I have seen the instant de-org thing and it might in fact be related to using H. TD. I will definitely have to play a game and test that later.

Originally posted by andersrlarsen:

I will only say one thing about that division;
heavy aa, heavy td, heavy armor (ALL heavy or super heavy variants) should only be used for defence, not for offense.

That's a lovely thought when fighting the AI. But if you have mediums and I have heavy tanks you will lose that tank fight.

The other thing that's really fun about heavy tanks is that you can build them with H. SPG to do crazy soft attack (or at least you could... and they nerfed it to hell). Before the nerf you could kill thousands of soldiers by fighting instead of just killing them on the overrun.

Before anyone goes on about how that nerf was justified (it wasnt) imagine the horror for a moment if Germany had rolled through Europe with nothing but panthers (something you can do as a player).

[vidkunquisling]

Originally posted by andersrlarsen:

better to use 13-7 or 14-6 m.armor and motorised.
if you want to have more piercing, then put in 1 m.td instead of a m.arm. (this will even penetrate your template.)

So this is getting a little off topic, which is fine. I used this template playing germany in MP games (I don't play single player too much). Speed is important against poland and France but it's not as important in Russia. I'd rather sacrifice a little speed for an impenetrable tank division, because you won't be able to exploit any gaps if your division can't stand up to Russian tanks.

Also, during the test I ran the following template: 5 motorized, 2 medium aa, 2 medium TD, and 12 medium tanks, against a heavy tank division. The division is not able to pen 1941 heavy tanks. As Germany in a competitive MP game, you need to be able to pen that type of tank division in north africa, where the meta is to put a South African heavy tank division.

I haven't had a problem with org in MP games with this template. Especially with modern blitzkrieg and all the benefits with German tanks.

But I have instantly deorged different tank templates with this template and I'm not too sure how.

[vidkunquisling]

Originally posted by Ryan:

I would never use that template. It has too much wasted production for what it can do. Also, why use motorized with Heavy Tanks? You may has well use infantry since it will be really slow.

Well mixing infantry and tanks is banned in most MP games. but you want motorized in your tank divisions because they have higher breakthrough. Also it's not a waste, because you have a division that is impenetrable like a heavy tank division, but significantly cheaper than one.

[andersrlarsen]

Originally posted by Vidkun Quisling:

Originally posted by andersrlarsen:

better to use 13-7 or 14-6 m.armor and motorised.
if you want to have more piercing, then put in 1 m.td instead of a m.arm. (this will even penetrate your template.)

So this is getting a little off topic, which is fine. I used this template playing germany in MP games (I don't play single player too much). Speed is important against poland and France but it's not as important in Russia. I'd rather sacrifice a little speed for an impenetrable tank division, because you won't be able to exploit any gaps if your division can't stand up to Russian tanks.

Also, during the test I ran the following template: 5 motorized, 2 medium aa, 2 medium TD, and 12 medium tanks, against a heavy tank division. The division is not able to pen 1941 heavy tanks. As Germany in a competitive MP game, you need to be able to pen that type of tank division in north africa, where the meta is to put a South African heavy tank division.

I haven't had a problem with org in MP games with this template. Especially with modern blitzkrieg and all the benefits with German tanks.

But I have instantly deorged different tank templates with this template and I'm not too sure how.

well, im not suprised that you didnt beat a heavy tank division using that template, and let me tell you why;
- the 2 aa brigades does nothing but lowering stats, and making the division worse. countering enemy air superiority is quite easy if you bothered to produce heavy fighters (they give 1.25 towards air superiority, while fighters give 1.0. they also have longer range, giving more coverage)
- the second td doesnt do much good, except lowering breakethrough stats.
- using 5 mot brigades, your division will have too low org, and togheter with the 2 reasons mentioned above, it will result in you loosing.

if you use 13-7 as base, then shift 1 m.arm to m.td (giving 12-7-1), the stats will be superior to your heavy tank division in everything, except armor and hardness (the heavy is slightly better in both stats). but the (much) higher breakethrough and org will eventually win the battle against your heavy tank on the offence.

if you want to go on offence with your heavy tank (since you are claiming it to be "a really efficient division for germany". and as germany are expected to be on the offence), you wont be able to ever defeat that medium template if there is a competent player (doesnt need to be a good player, just competent is enough) controling them.

which leads to my point that heavy armor (and variants) are defencive units, while medium is for offencive use!!

and btw in 1941, you should consider using mech instead if you can afford the production cost. but considering that you are building heavy td, heavy armor and heavy aa for your tank divisions, i would say that you can easily afford that cost for at least a few brigades of mech instead of mot if using medium template.

[vidkunquisling]

this is getting pretty autistic. but I would say you need AA in your tank divisions and a tank division will fight for days at 1 or 2 org if it is impenetrable. regardless I don't really care anymore if you guys don't like the template, it's worked out perfect for me in dozens of competitive German MP games so w.e. and I do have 33.5 org with this which is plenty of org, and 1017 breakthrough.

I'm more interested in this instant deorging mechanic (which doesn't happen to my tanks but I do it to good enemy tanks)

[glythe]

Originally posted by Vidkun Quisling:

Well mixing infantry and tanks is banned in most MP games. but you want motorized in your tank divisions because they have higher breakthrough. Also it's not a waste, because you have a division that is impenetrable like a heavy tank division, but significantly cheaper than one.

The banned combo has always been marines/special forces with tanks (aka space marines).

Regular infantry with tanks isn't really exploiting anything. You trade speed for better hardness and breakthrough for defense.

Originally posted by Vidkun Quisling:

I would say you need AA in your tank divisions and a tank division will fight for days at 1 or 2 org if it is impenetrable.

I don't really care anymore if you guys don't like the template

1017 breakthrough.

There is a speculation that the TD causes the instant de-org problem. I do not think that AA are preventing your tanks from getting de-orgd.

One thing you may not be thinking about is total production cost. You are making mediums, heavies, AA, but not the SPG. Making all those different types of things wastes production.

Why are you hating on SPGs?

[vidkunquisling]

yea you definitely need SPG but not in a deep battle tank like this one because it lowers the armor value. Gonna be a little autistic but I wrote this plan down lol and I'd like to share.



so if you are interested here are the 6 templates I use (along with Blitzkrieg+Modern Blitzkrieg doctrine)

-default light panzer
-SPG balanced medium for early game (1939)
-Medium TD for early game N. Africa (Just to hold it down until I get my deep battle Panzers)
-Deep battle Panzer w/ heavies to break Russia
-Sturm panzer with a ton of SPGs to melt infantry
-Hasty medium template to deal with D-Day

Stage 1= 1939, Poland & France:
3 default light panzers,
3 of this type: 11 medium tanks, 2 medium AA, 5 motorized,2 SPG

Stage 2= 1940, North Africa:
3 light panzers,
3 of this type: 11 mediums, 2 medium AA, 5 motorized, 2 medium TD


Stage 3= 1940-end game, Normandy + Russia:
3 default light panzers
3 Sturmpanzer divisions: 7 Medium tanks, 5 motorized, 4 SPG, 2 medium AA
9 Deep battle Panzer divisions: 9 Medium tanks, 3 Heavy tanks, 2 Heavy TD, 2 heavy AA, 5 motorized
2 Panzers in the West: 9 medium tanks, 2 medium AA, 8 motorized, 2 medium TD (i give them my panzer 3s and my old equipment)


The strategy is for early game you want your default light tanks with a few balanced mediums t hat can take out infantry. Then I give those medium tanks a couple tank destroyers so I can contend north africa against south african heavy tanks.

For russia I add three different templates. 1 deep battle tank to fight other tanks, 1 sturm panzer tank to melt infantry, and then a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ tank to buy time in the west in case of d-day.

[glythe]

Alternatively..... you can use your treaty with the Soviets to rush tigers and rush the leopard.

Light tanks are great for steamrolling countries at the start of the game. But later on they suck unless you get the better light tank.You can keep using the light tank until countries get the 41 AT upgrade and then they are pretty much worthless. Any player that makes AT and adds them to their division template (not support) will make medium and light tanks worthless.

Generally speaking as Germany you are doing something wrong if you don't have air superiority in a land battle. You won't need AA in your tank/infantry divisions.

The great benefit of light tanks is the ability to overrun and kill troops. Motorized can do the same thing at a much cheaper production cost. You can replace trucks like no tomorrow but tanks are not something you want to lose.

Heavy tanks may be slow when you mix them with infantry but they win. You have all that complexity in your build and maybe it's more historic but it is less good than what I do because it is far less efficient. This matters because the efficiency of my build gets even better when I make my tiger have +3 armor from early game army experience.

You know a few tricks but you are missing the whole picture:

1. TDs help reduce the cost of armor divisions and greatly increase piercing.
2. SPG greatly increase soft attack and are most definitely worth the slight armor reduction. ***
3. All things being equal a simple design is better than a complex one; in this case having 3 production lines for armored vehicles is better than having 5-7 different production lines.
4. If you are pushing in 24 squares then you only need at most 24 heavy tanks.
5. Light tanks can be relevant again with a main gun upgrade or can otherwise be used as a concentrated surge force when the enemy is ill equipped or not entrenched yet.


Note: *** You know all those AA you are making? Those lower armor slightly. Next time you build your mega division try replacing AA with SPG instead. Look how much more soft attack you get! Adding a few SPG in your division while you are fighting will kill enemy infantry like crazy (the upgraded version of 4 infantry/4 artillery).

[glythe]

Wow this post got buried fast....

I played a game with Heavy tanks and found that adding a single TD changed the piercing by about 20 points but lowered the breakthrough by about 100 points.

I have an idea that the massively lower defense is what was leading to instant de-organization issues. Heavy tanks are very prone to slow reinforcement so when 2 get de-organized it can stop the stack from attacking.

[vidkunquisling]

It happens with medium tanks just as much though