Something needs to be done about random war declarations which drag the player into WW2.

[iMajoraGaming]

I.E if a apathetic Romania is invading Greece, and Greece is nearly capitulated, why does the German AI feel the need to fabricate and then use a CB and in the process throw the player under the bus by dragging Greece into the Allies, which makes things worse for literally everyone, itself included.

What reason does the AI have to do these randomly self-destructive things? What possible strategic motive is there?

[Mocha]

What makes it worse then just the AI dragging in other people is wen the AI takes a random province or two you were gonna take.

[iMajoraGaming]

Originally posted by Mocha Kawa:

What makes it worse then just the AI dragging in other people is wen the AI takes a random province or two you were gonna take.

Yeah that's awful too.

I just don't get the strategic thinking and I hate it because it both doesn't make sense and makes you miserable.

[iMajoraGaming]

Bumping this because this time, for some reason I can't even fathom, the US decided to invade Mexico. Democratic Mexico. Who was in my Entente. We're all democracies. Mexico didn't nationalize its oil. The US just invaded Mexico ON THE SIDE OF JAPAN NOW, because??????????????????????

Why is this a thing????? This is getting absurd.

I absolutely don't get it. It's genuinely confusing in the magnitude of the lack of logic present.

I don't *think* the US has a focus for war with a democratic Mexico. The US was also lend-leasing and sending volunteers to Mexico. The only thing I can think of would be an event, or Mexico taking a specific focus.

But going back to oil nationalization, Mexico didn't. And in all my own playthroughs as Mexico and the US, that's the only focus I can verify has an event chain that can lead to war.

[Hidden Gunman]

I just had Venezuela join the axis in late 41, declare war on Holland to grab a patch of jungle. As Britain, I invaded Venezuela, and have now secured a very safe source of oil.

Mmmm...blunder. Especially as my sub and detroyer fleet is now making a meal of the axis' merchant fleets trying to source all that sweet black gold Japan has in the east indies.

[iMajoraGaming]

Originally posted by Hidden Gunman:

I just had Venezuela join the axis in late 41, declare war on Holland to grab a patch of jungle. As Britain, I invaded Venezuela, and have now secured a very safe source of oil.

Mmmm...blunder.

That I can kind of get because it has an ideological motivator tbh.

Just confuses and frustrates me when things like Germany dragging you into WW2 or, in this recent case, the US invading a democracy it was arming and helping in a war against fascist Japan with seemingly no real prompt.

It mostly sucks because while I did get Big Entente, I was going to try playing until 1948 for that achievement as well, but when America chose to help Japan after threatening them over the Panay Incident, it caused Japan to be able to sink most of my navy as the British pissed off to go do something else because of Canada being invaded.

I'd probably be less angery if I could think of an actual prompt that would cause an instant wargoal/declaration.

[Oakshield]

There are three reasons for all of what you ranted about.

1) because it's programmed that way. There are several checkpoints in game - Hindenburg dissaster, Amelia Earhart for instance - setting up a "historical path" and its alternatives. So in case of that USA-event, the path layed out was to invade Mexico at some point.

2) Because there are some historical flaws in this game; especially when it comes to the war in the Balkans and Africa.

For the record, it wasn't Germany who declared war on Yugoslavia and Greece, it was Italy. However, because the Italian soldiers weren't really in the mood for fighting (can't blame them, as fighting may get you killed), they were actually pushed back into Albania and were about to loose the fight there, unless they got help. Hence Germany coming to their aid and DoW'ing Yugoslavia and Greece.
A similar thing happened in Afrika; Italy attacking the Brittish, making little progress, then being pushed back in a British counter attack in which the British got all of Cyrenaica and thus Germany had to come to Italy's aide.

3) At some point the USA got an event in which it attacks any nation that attacks a Central or South-American nation. It used to fire in 1943, if I remember correctly.
Perhaps you attacked a nation for your achievement and just missed the notification of the event in which every American nation's independence got guaranteed?

Thorin :)

[GoldenTalon]

This has been an issue with Hoi4 since launch. It was worse as Germany would run around declaring war on everyone and then get crushed. What the OP describes is part of the remnants of that stupid AI behavior. It comes down to the devs not really caring to test and balance their product and people still buying it despite that.

[iMajoraGaming]

Originally posted by Oakshield:

There are three reasons for all of what you ranted about.

1) because it's programmed that way. There are several checkpoints in game - Hindenburg dissaster, Amelia Earhart for instance - setting up a "historical path" and its alternatives. So in case of that USA-event, the path layed out was to invade Mexico at some point.

2) Because there are some historical flaws in this game; especially when it comes to the war in the Balkans and Africa.

For the record, it wasn't Germany who declared war on Yugoslavia and Greece, it was Italy. However, because the Italian soldiers weren't really in the mood for fighting (can't blame them, as fighting may get you killed), they were actually pushed back into Albania and were about to loose the fight there, unless they got help. Hence Germany coming to their aid and DoW'ing Yugoslavia and Greece.
A similar thing happened in Afrika; Italy attacking the Brittish, making little progress, then being pushed back in a British counter attack in which the British got all of Cyrenaica and thus Germany had to come to Italy's aide.

3) At some point the USA got an event in which it attacks any nation that attacks a Central or South-American nation. It used to fire in 1943, if I remember correctly.
Perhaps you attacked a nation for your achievement and just missed the notification of the event in which every American nation's independence got guaranteed?

Thorin :)

Uh, no. You're just flat out wrong dude.

Germany declared the war. That's what happened. I literally have 1000+ hours in HoI4. I'm not stupid.

There are also no events that lead to a CB against Mexico outside of nationalizing oil. I've played both countries past 1945.

[iMajoraGaming]

Originally posted by Oakshield:

There are three reasons for all of what you ranted about.

1) because it's programmed that way. There are several checkpoints in game - Hindenburg dissaster, Amelia Earhart for instance - setting up a "historical path" and its alternatives. So in case of that USA-event, the path layed out was to invade Mexico at some point.

2) Because there are some historical flaws in this game; especially when it comes to the war in the Balkans and Africa.

For the record, it wasn't Germany who declared war on Yugoslavia and Greece, it was Italy. However, because the Italian soldiers weren't really in the mood for fighting (can't blame them, as fighting may get you killed), they were actually pushed back into Albania and were about to loose the fight there, unless they got help. Hence Germany coming to their aid and DoW'ing Yugoslavia and Greece.
A similar thing happened in Afrika; Italy attacking the Brittish, making little progress, then being pushed back in a British counter attack in which the British got all of Cyrenaica and thus Germany had to come to Italy's aide.

3) At some point the USA got an event in which it attacks any nation that attacks a Central or South-American nation. It used to fire in 1943, if I remember correctly.
Perhaps you attacked a nation for your achievement and just missed the notification of the event in which every American nation's independence got guaranteed?

Thorin :)

Also the war against a South American country is gone, that focus no longer exists. It would be against Chile if the US was fascist or Venezuela if democratic, which no longer exists because the US has a new focus tree in MtG.

[Oakshield]

Originally posted by iMajoraGaming:

Originally posted by Oakshield:

For the record, it wasn't Germany who declared war on Yugoslavia and Greece, it was Italy. However, because the Italian soldiers weren't really in the mood for fighting (can't blame them, as fighting may get you killed), they were actually pushed back into Albania and were about to loose the fight there, unless they got help. Hence Germany coming to their aid and DoW'ing Yugoslavia and Greece.
A similar thing happened in Afrika; Italy attacking the Brittish, making little progress, then being pushed back in a British counter attack in which the British got all of Cyrenaica and thus Germany had to come to Italy's aide.


Thorin :)

Uh, no. You're just flat out wrong dude.

Germany declared the war. That's what happened. I literally have 1000+ hours in HoI4. I'm not stupid.

There are also no events that lead to a CB against Mexico outside of nationalizing oil. I've played both countries past 1945.

I hate to tell you this, but I wasn't talking about the game, but about the real WW II events.
I actually said :

2) Because there are some historical flaws in this game; especially when it comes to the war in the Balkans and Africa.

And explained that with what I meant.

I'm aware not anyone is a native English speaking person, I'm one of those. But my explanation was quite easy to understand.

So, speaking of programming flaws; here's a list:

1) Russia not invading East Poland anymore; but still getting half of Poland.
In real life - and in previous versions - the Poles had to keep half of their army at the Eastern border, because they feared to be backstabbed by the Russians at some point.
In MtG that changed into Germany defeating Poland and then giving half of the country to Russia.

2) As said, Italy DoW'ed Yugoslavia and Greece and had Germany to come to their rescue because they (the Italians) were driven back into Albania. Especially by the Greece army. Britain only came to Greece aid AFTER Germany DoW'ed Greece.
Also the Croats never formed an independent - or puppet - state. They colaborated with the Germans, hoping they would be able to form an independent state.
In MtG, Gemany DoW'ed Yugoslavia and Greece and immediately a Croat puppet state forms.

3) In the real WW II, Italy invaded Egypt because Mussolini hoped to form a new Roman empire. However, that invasion didn't go as planned, because the Italians got halted not long after crossing the border; only to be driven back halfway across Libiya in a British counter attack. At that point, Germany had to come to Italian rescue - again! - driving the British back, only to be driven back later again, to drive the British back, to be defeated at El-Alamein.
Eventually the Germans were pushed out of North Africa after Operation Torch, including a very important lesson the US Army leaned at that operation and the battle at Kasserine pass.
In HoI 4 it's either the British invading Libiya or the Italians invading Egypt, ending with either party taking full control of North Africa.

4) In 1941, the US was sucked into the war because of the attack at Pearl Harbor and several hours later - but in a different timezone and day - the attack at the Philipines.
In HoI 4 the attack at Pearl never happens. Or at least, not in my games.


As you can see there are multiple non-historical events happening in a game based upon history and even the historical events that are used can have a different outcome. So far I've seen Earhart survive her flight, Trotsky survive his assassination attempt, the Hindenburg escaping the dissaster.
All these "fixed" events are used as a trigger point for th outcome of the game.

Meaning that if something doesn't happen the way you expect it to happen, it wasn't a bug, but programmed that way as an alternative history / timeline.

Thorin :)

[iMajoraGaming]

Originally posted by Oakshield:

Originally posted by iMajoraGaming:

Uh, no. You're just flat out wrong dude.

Germany declared the war. That's what happened. I literally have 1000+ hours in HoI4. I'm not stupid.

There are also no events that lead to a CB against Mexico outside of nationalizing oil. I've played both countries past 1945.

I hate to tell you this, but I wasn't talking about the game, but about the real WW II events.
I actually said :

2) Because there are some historical flaws in this game; especially when it comes to the war in the Balkans and Africa.

And explained that with what I meant.

I'm aware not anyone is a native English speaking person, I'm one of those. But my explanation was quite easy to understand.

So, speaking of programming flaws; here's a list:

1) Russia not invading East Poland anymore; but still getting half of Poland.
In real life - and in previous versions - the Poles had to keep half of their army at the Eastern border, because they feared to be backstabbed by the Russians at some point.
In MtG that changed into Germany defeating Poland and then giving half of the country to Russia.

2) As said, Italy DoW'ed Yugoslavia and Greece and had Germany to come to their rescue because they (the Italians) were driven back into Albania. Especially by the Greece army. Britain only came to Greece aid AFTER Germany DoW'ed Greece.
Also the Croats never formed an independent - or puppet - state. They colaborated with the Germans, hoping they would be able to form an independent state.
In MtG, Gemany DoW'ed Yugoslavia and Greece and immediately a Croat puppet state forms.

3) In the real WW II, Italy invaded Egypt because Mussolini hoped to form a new Roman empire. However, that invasion didn't go as planned, because the Italians got halted not long after crossing the border; only to be driven back halfway across Libiya in a British counter attack. At that point, Germany had to come to Italian rescue - again! - driving the British back, only to be driven back later again, to drive the British back, to be defeated at El-Alamein.
Eventually the Germans were pushed out of North Africa after Operation Torch, including a very important lesson the US Army leaned at that operation and the battle at Kasserine pass.
In HoI 4 it's either the British invading Libiya or the Italians invading Egypt, ending with either party taking full control of North Africa.

4) In 1941, the US was sucked into the war because of the attack at Pearl Harbor and several hours later - but in a different timezone and day - the attack at the Philipines.
In HoI 4 the attack at Pearl never happens. Or at least, not in my games.


As you can see there are multiple non-historical events happening in a game based upon history and even the historical events that are used can have a different outcome. So far I've seen Earhart survive her flight, Trotsky survive his assassination attempt, the Hindenburg escaping the dissaster.
All these "fixed" events are used as a trigger point for th outcome of the game.

Meaning that if something doesn't happen the way you expect it to happen, it wasn't a bug, but programmed that way as an alternative history / timeline.

Thorin :)

I apologize for being acerbic and not recognizing the split between game and IRL history. In any case, the invasion of Poland still happens, but now it's only if Germany takes M/R-P, in which case the Soviets will always justify on Poland and declare if Poland has not yet capitulated, if they have, then Germany gets an event to give the Soviets their half in exchange for a NA pact. The issue is that the rework of Germany's focus tree doesn't account for Anti-Comintern and thus leaves the entire Poland issue broken and in need of a patch.

Similarly, the US and Japan now never fight, as even on historical Japan will avoid the Philippines every time, and now there is no focus or event for Pearl Harbour, making US entry into WW2 sometimes never occur, or sometimes it's due to the broken AI doing inane things that have no real tactical or logistical value.

In any case, Yugoslavia no longer existed, it had been annexed by the time Germany had done its stupid dance and declared war on a collapsing August Regime, and without access, Germany had no way of reaching the encircled, landlocked VPs Romania was besieging.

It feels odd that even with historical foci turned on, there are several massive things which have either been removed (Pearl Harbour), don't exist (proper colonial warfare, divisions in Papua New Guinea fight the same as a jeep in the Libyan Desert, or an Arditi in the Alps), or were broken with the various focus tree reworks.

It's just kind of mind blowing.

[Team Triss]

Re: attacking Mexico, I think down the USA fascist tree you can antagonize Mexico the way you used to be able to antagonize Venezuela, and you might not have to go full fascist to get there.

[Hidden Gunman]

My current game the US eventually declared war on the axis, and is spraying divisions around the world like an out of control garden hose.

Japan declared war on all the Brit empire nations except India, and within a week of invading Sicily, when only three Italian divisions were in Italy, the axis moved in more than one hundred divisions and thousands of aircraft...

The game has periods of lucidity, then spots of bizarre crisis.

[iMajoraGaming]

Originally posted by LoR Team Triss:

Re: attacking Mexico, I think down the USA fascist tree you can antagonize Mexico the way you used to be able to antagonize Venezuela, and you might not have to go full fascist to get there.

I don't think I've seen the US actually be able to go down that path because the lock on it revolving around the election in November means the AI will usually just take New Deal and even if it elects Alf, that's a solid 4 or 5 focuses it'd crack out until November, meaning that while it can happen, I'm not sure it's possible in the practical sense.

Which is kind of another big issue with the US in MtG tbh, it unintentionally railroads the AI.