Massive Downgrade?

[Kristen Reid 𒈠𒀯𒀯]

I just got around to looking at the game - checking out screenshots and reviews and the like. While its possible I'm missing something, this seems like a massive downgrade from Hearts of Iron III - and that is a huge feat.

I don't see land-trading/provence trading still, which is something that earlier games in the series had to prevent border gore which shouldn't exist.

There also only seems to be four ideologies that are so badly over simplified that it is almost hard to believe.

Finally there doesn't seem to be any policies anymore at all, no government policies - no changing voting rights, no sliders, not even the very basic thing that Hearts of Iron 3 had.

The reviews are very high though - so perhaps the things I looked at were out of date or perhaps I missed something. Can someone clue me in on what makes up for this seeming downgrade or if perhaps its planed to be fixed in the future? A shiny new world war 2 game would be nice...but this doesn't seem like it qualifies as even a world war 2 game as is.

[SomethingSalty]

They simplified it and kinda dumbed it down, personally I wasn't a fan of HOI3 because it was a huge ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of micromanaging and felt so unsatifying to beat.
Darkest Hour was the perfect mix for me, but in HOI4 they made everything super casual and it had zero learning curve compared to the previous games beyond having different mechanics.
I still like it though, it's fun to exploit and mess around with.

[Kristen Reid 𒈠𒀯𒀯]

SomethingSalty eredeti hozzászólása:

They simplified it and kinda dumbed it down, personally I wasn't a fan of HOI3 because it was a huge ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of micromanaging and felt so unsatifying to beat.
Darkest Hour was the perfect mix for me, but in HOI4 they made everything super casual and it had zero learning curve compared to the previous games beyond having different mechanics.
I still like it though, it's fun to exploit and mess around with.

I liked Darkest Hour the best as well - I feel it had an amazing balance of sandbox (actual sandbox, event driven, goal oriented) and historic gameplay. The mechanics were not great, but it was still better than what came after. Its sad to hear that the paradox fans themselves still didn't get the world war two game we were hoping for though.

Would I be right in assuming that 4 is mostly like a real time making history?

[SomethingSalty]

Useless eredeti hozzászólása:

SomethingSalty eredeti hozzászólása:

They simplified it and kinda dumbed it down, personally I wasn't a fan of HOI3 because it was a huge ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of micromanaging and felt so unsatifying to beat.
Darkest Hour was the perfect mix for me, but in HOI4 they made everything super casual and it had zero learning curve compared to the previous games beyond having different mechanics.
I still like it though, it's fun to exploit and mess around with.

I liked Darkest Hour the best as well - I feel it had an amazing balance of sandbox (actual sandbox, event driven, goal oriented) and historic gameplay. The mechanics were not great, but it was still better than what came after. Its sad to hear that the paradox fans themselves still didn't get the world war two game we were hoping for though.

Would I be right in assuming that 4 is mostly like a real time making history?

If you mean what I believe you mean, 4 is still a Grand Strategy game, and yes, it is most fun played a-historically, it's always funny playing as some tiny country like Cuba or Haiti and conquering South America, or playing as one of the irrelevant Chinese warlord states and conquering Asia, but none-the-less, most of this is possible because it's easy to accomplish if you know the ins and outs of the game (it isn't very hard to learn either, it's legitmately sad when you encircle an entire nation's army which has 2x as many divisions as you and destroy them all just because the AI can't think properly.)
P.S, go watch some of iSorrowProductions's videos where he plays as some tiny nations you've never heard of, he demonstrates pretty clearly how hilarious the game gets.

[Kristen Reid 𒈠𒀯𒀯]

SomethingSalty eredeti hozzászólása:

Useless eredeti hozzászólása:

I liked Darkest Hour the best as well - I feel it had an amazing balance of sandbox (actual sandbox, event driven, goal oriented) and historic gameplay. The mechanics were not great, but it was still better than what came after. Its sad to hear that the paradox fans themselves still didn't get the world war two game we were hoping for though.

Would I be right in assuming that 4 is mostly like a real time making history?

If you mean what I believe you mean, 4 is still a Grand Strategy game, and yes, it is most fun played a-historically, it's always funny playing as some tiny country like Cuba or Haiti and conquering South America, or playing as one of the irrelevant Chinese warlord states and conquering Asia, but none-the-less, most of this is possible because it's easy to accomplish if you know the ins and outs of the game (it isn't very hard to learn either, it's legitmately sad when you encircle an entire nation's army which has 2x as many divisions as you and destroy them all just because the AI can't think properly.)
P.S, go watch some of iSorrowProductions's videos where he plays as some tiny nations you've never heard of, he demonstrates pretty clearly how hilarious the game gets.

But its less fun doing that when there are no events with it. A lot of people use the sandbox defense, but even EUIV and CK2 have flavor for when you do something crazy like that and Darkest Hour definitely did. Dynamic puppet states, secret events, at least some minor flavor events for gaining cores or claims on long lost territory. Also its less fun doing that when your ideology is reduced to four options that are meaningless in every manner of the word.

[SomethingSalty]

Useless eredeti hozzászólása:

SomethingSalty eredeti hozzászólása:

If you mean what I believe you mean, 4 is still a Grand Strategy game, and yes, it is most fun played a-historically, it's always funny playing as some tiny country like Cuba or Haiti and conquering South America, or playing as one of the irrelevant Chinese warlord states and conquering Asia, but none-the-less, most of this is possible because it's easy to accomplish if you know the ins and outs of the game (it isn't very hard to learn either, it's legitmately sad when you encircle an entire nation's army which has 2x as many divisions as you and destroy them all just because the AI can't think properly.)
P.S, go watch some of iSorrowProductions's videos where he plays as some tiny nations you've never heard of, he demonstrates pretty clearly how hilarious the game gets.

But its less fun doing that when there are no events with it. A lot of people use the sandbox defense, but even EUIV and CK2 have flavor for when you do something crazy like that and Darkest Hour definitely did. Dynamic puppet states, secret events, at least some minor flavor events for gaining cores or claims on long lost territory. Also its less fun doing that when your ideology is reduced to four options that are meaningless in every manner of the word.

Yeah, I see what you mean, the closest HOI4 has to a-historical events is usually just flavor events for dropping nukes on important cities, as well as occupying important cities, there aren't many a-historical events beyond that, I suppose there's the German Civil War one that happens at chance if you declare war on Czechoslovakia, but beyond that it's all for gags, I've definitely had more fun playing EU4 and CK2 in the long-term.

[Kristen Reid 𒈠𒀯𒀯]

SomethingSalty eredeti hozzászólása:

Useless eredeti hozzászólása:

But its less fun doing that when there are no events with it. A lot of people use the sandbox defense, but even EUIV and CK2 have flavor for when you do something crazy like that and Darkest Hour definitely did. Dynamic puppet states, secret events, at least some minor flavor events for gaining cores or claims on long lost territory. Also its less fun doing that when your ideology is reduced to four options that are meaningless in every manner of the word.

Yeah, I see what you mean, the closest HOI4 has to a-historical events is usually just flavor events for dropping nukes on important cities, as well as occupying important cities, there aren't many a-historical events beyond that, I suppose there's the German Civil War one that happens at chance if you declare war on Czechoslovakia, but beyond that it's all for gags, I've definitely had more fun playing EU4 and CK2 in the long-term.

That is barely flavor. x3 Again, its really sad to hear which direction they chose to go in. I'll keep an eye out never-the-less. EUIV went quite a long way since its launch, after-all.

[breakfast]

Yeah, it's not great yet, and is missing many features from HoI3. It suffers from "streamlining" and "accessibility," which, for some reason, seems to mean stripping the game of many of its features and dumbing it down to the point where it loses most of its depth, when it SHOULD mean improving the UI and making things more intuitive and easier to understand and use.

It does have some advantages over previous iterations of the game, though. I prefer the way production works in HoI4, for instance, in that you actually produce the individual pieces of equipment and stockpile them for use in equipping, reinforcing, and updating divisions. The division designer is kind of neat, too.

In the end, it's Paradox, so it'll be good in another year or two (after $200 worth of DLC, naturally).

[Lonesome 77]

They experimented with new ideas; can't fault them for that too much, really. The whole production/stockpiling/updating system seems preferable, as wideo james says, and that is something new from HoI 3.

You can't really bring 'lack of sliders' as a charge against HoI 4 - HoI 3 seems to be a slider micromanaging chore a lot of the time...whereas you're not constantly micromanaging your military or civilian factories in HoI 4.

I was experienced with HoI 3 and for the longest time all I heard was straight doom and gloom about HoI 4 and how it was a "downgrade" from HoI 3, so I held off. But I made the plunge and honestly I've enjoyed my time in HoI 4. I don't take the game 100% seriously either, whereas I feel like HoI 3 was set up to be very clinical.


I'm convinced, especially after getting enjoyment out of this game I'm supposed to despise as a HoI 3 player, that I'm insanely easy to entertain and please. So I guess my opinion probably doesn't represent much when it comes to HoI 3 vs HoI 4...

[Kristen Reid 𒈠𒀯𒀯]

aShotOfJameson eredeti hozzászólása:

They experimented with new ideas; can't fault them for that too much, really. The whole production/stockpiling/updating system seems preferable, as wideo james says, and that is something new from HoI 3.

You can't really bring 'lack of sliders' as a charge against HoI 4 - HoI 3 seems to be a slider micromanaging chore a lot of the time...whereas you're not constantly micromanaging your military or civilian factories in HoI 4.

I was experienced with HoI 3 and for the longest time all I heard was straight doom and gloom about HoI 4 and how it was a "downgrade" from HoI 3, so I held off. But I made the plunge and honestly I've enjoyed my time in HoI 4. I don't take the game 100% seriously either, whereas I feel like HoI 3 was set up to be very clinical.


I'm convinced, especially after getting enjoyment out of this game I'm supposed to despise as a HoI 3 player, that I'm insanely easy to entertain and please. So I guess my opinion probably doesn't represent much when it comes to HoI 3 vs HoI 4...

I don't think you understand what I mean by 'sliders', since HoI 3 had a fully automated military that you didn't need to control. By 'sliders' I mean for the government. Hearts of Iron 4 completely strips any political meaning away completely, its pointless.

The graphics look nice, I can't speak for the other stuff since I haven't played it, but I'm sure the military and production mechanics are better...but is that really worth losing all the flavour that a world war 2 game should have? It doesn't have a 33 start-date, its all about the war, nothing about politics, nothing about diplomacy, nothing about spycraft, nothing about alternative history, nothing about real history. It looks more like a framework for a game, a proof of concept of a skeleton that a ww2 game could be put into.

And I'm coming from Darkest Hour - a much much older game...and a MOD at that. Hearts of Iron 4 really should be able to do better.

[Lonesome 77]

Useless eredeti hozzászólása:

aShotOfJameson eredeti hozzászólása:

They experimented with new ideas; can't fault them for that too much, really. The whole production/stockpiling/updating system seems preferable, as wideo james says, and that is something new from HoI 3.

You can't really bring 'lack of sliders' as a charge against HoI 4 - HoI 3 seems to be a slider micromanaging chore a lot of the time...whereas you're not constantly micromanaging your military or civilian factories in HoI 4.

I was experienced with HoI 3 and for the longest time all I heard was straight doom and gloom about HoI 4 and how it was a "downgrade" from HoI 3, so I held off. But I made the plunge and honestly I've enjoyed my time in HoI 4. I don't take the game 100% seriously either, whereas I feel like HoI 3 was set up to be very clinical.


I'm convinced, especially after getting enjoyment out of this game I'm supposed to despise as a HoI 3 player, that I'm insanely easy to entertain and please. So I guess my opinion probably doesn't represent much when it comes to HoI 3 vs HoI 4...

I don't think you understand what I mean by 'sliders', since HoI 3 had a fully automated military that you didn't need to control. By 'sliders' I mean for the government. Hearts of Iron 4 completely strips any political meaning away completely, its pointless.

The graphics look nice, I can't speak for the other stuff since I haven't played it, but I'm sure the military and production mechanics are better...but is that really worth losing all the flavour that a world war 2 game should have? It doesn't have a 33 start-date, its all about the war, nothing about politics, nothing about diplomacy, nothing about spycraft, nothing about alternative history, nothing about real history. It looks more like a framework for a game, a proof of concept of a skeleton that a ww2 game could be put into.

And I'm coming from Darkest Hour - a much much older game...and a MOD at that. Hearts of Iron 4 really should be able to do better.

Sliders - I know exactly what you mean by sliders, I have played HoI 3. I'm not sure what point you were getting at here with sliders though.

HoI 3 has a fully automated military that you don't need to control - basically the same for HoI 4 really, with creating and executing plans.


It doesn't have a 33 start date - HoI 3 starts in 1936, or later.

It's all about war - is it not a WWII game?

Nothing about politics - you seem to know an awful lot about the game for not having played it. You can influence your own country's politics as well as other countries. You can store up and spend political power to afford decisions, political and military staff, change economic laws, recruitment laws, mobilization...

Nothing about diplomacy - yes there is plenty of diplomacy. You can interact with other nations in various ways depending on mutual opinions, world tension, etc. Lend lease, guarding a country's independence, creating factions, and such.

Nothing about spycraft - no you don't recruit and manage spies like in HoI 3, but you can use radar and decryption for instance to find out more information on the enemy forces. You can check out their country screen to see approximately how many factories, air bases, shipyards, divisions, aircraft, and vessels they have. Which more or less implies espionage I suppose. You're right and wrong on this point.

Nothing about alternative history - Of all the points you try to bring against HoI 4...are you actually serious here? Even with historical focuses you can do all sorts of crazy alternate history stuff. If you turn off historical focuses you'll probably see some nations go down different paths. And then if you get to the workshop you've struck it rich. Want to start in 1936 but in a world where Germany won WWI? Kaiserreich is for you. Want to try to stave off the onslaught as Germany in late WWII? Endseig is for you. Want to alter 21st century history? Millennium Dawn is for you. All for free.

Nothing about real history - Huh? HoI 4 very clearly includes historical events, especially in the lead-up to World War II. What are you trying to say here?

[Kristen Reid 𒈠𒀯𒀯]

aShotOfJameson eredeti hozzászólása:

Useless eredeti hozzászólása:

I don't think you understand what I mean by 'sliders', since HoI 3 had a fully automated military that you didn't need to control. By 'sliders' I mean for the government. Hearts of Iron 4 completely strips any political meaning away completely, its pointless.

The graphics look nice, I can't speak for the other stuff since I haven't played it, but I'm sure the military and production mechanics are better...but is that really worth losing all the flavour that a world war 2 game should have? It doesn't have a 33 start-date, its all about the war, nothing about politics, nothing about diplomacy, nothing about spycraft, nothing about alternative history, nothing about real history. It looks more like a framework for a game, a proof of concept of a skeleton that a ww2 game could be put into.

And I'm coming from Darkest Hour - a much much older game...and a MOD at that. Hearts of Iron 4 really should be able to do better.

Sliders - I know exactly what you mean by sliders, I have played HoI 3. I'm not sure what point you were getting at here with sliders though.

HoI 3 has a fully automated military that you don't need to control - basically the same for HoI 4 really, with creating and executing plans.


It doesn't have a 33 start date - HoI 3 starts in 1936, or later.

It's all about war - is it not a WWII game?

Nothing about politics - you seem to know an awful lot about the game for not having played it. You can influence your own country's politics as well as other countries. You can store up and spend political power to afford decisions, political and military staff, change economic laws, recruitment laws, mobilization...

Nothing about diplomacy - yes there is plenty of diplomacy. You can interact with other nations in various ways depending on mutual opinions, world tension, etc. Lend lease, guarding a country's independence, creating factions, and such.

Nothing about spycraft - no you don't recruit and manage spies like in HoI 3, but you can use radar and decryption for instance to find out more information on the enemy forces. You can check out their country screen to see approximately how many factories, air bases, shipyards, divisions, aircraft, and vessels they have. Which more or less implies espionage I suppose. You're right and wrong on this point.

Nothing about alternative history - Of all the points you try to bring against HoI 4...are you actually serious here? Even with historical focuses you can do all sorts of crazy alternate history stuff. If you turn off historical focuses you'll probably see some nations go down different paths. And then if you get to the workshop you've struck it rich. Want to start in 1936 but in a world where Germany won WWI? Kaiserreich is for you. Want to try to stave off the onslaught as Germany in late WWII? Endseig is for you. Want to alter 21st century history? Millennium Dawn is for you. All for free.

Nothing about real history - Huh? HoI 4 very clearly includes historical events, especially in the lead-up to World War II. What are you trying to say here?

I seem to have struck a nerve - I don't recall saying anything overly rude in my comment so perhaps there was a miscommunication. I'm not trying to be rude, just point out facts.

It doesn't - I've asked and asked, and looked at screenshots. Perhaps you can provide me with one of proof. I'm looking for at least something as complex as HoI 3 is not something as in-depth as Darkest Hour. Something where you can determine the legal rights of your citizens, how democratic the government is (not the ideology 'democracy'), and interventionism. NOT just things related to, again, war. And this isn't COD, world war 2 wasn't just about war, it was a struggle of ideas...it started with the Spanish Civil War, really. Hitler didn't declare war on Poland until that mess was resolved. But HoI 4 lacks any political depth beyond 'get big army, go smash'

I feel a 1933 start-date is important, earlier titles in the series managed to have it and I feel it was removed because it was 'too boring' for people looking for something like a rts grand historic version of COD. It gives you three years to plan, to prepare, and if the devs do things right to perhaps pick alternative avenunes of history. And when I say that I don't mean turning 'lucky nations' off or whatever HoI 4 has, I mean even driven Alternative History like in earlier titles like Darkest Hour. The base game of Darkest Hour has events for every single nation on the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ map. Egypt can join the Axis and its fully event driven with events for them even winning and getting their land back - not having to rely on just random dice-rolls for your choaswank play, Japan can choose to go towards the north/USSR or south/China or even to become a democracy at multiple points and its all event driven. HoI 3 started on the path of eliminating this in the vague name of 'sandbox' but that isn't what 'sandbox' means - like I said its more like the skeleton of a game than a game itself.


And, again, Darkest Hour is the main thing I'm coming from - I have almost 400 more hours in it than hoi3 and its infinitely better. Every nation just about is interesting to play - at least European and Asian. All of them have events, decisions, and the like. There are - shock horror - even complex events for the end of world war 2 and the restructuring of Europe unlike in HoI 3 and I'd be willing to guess 4. You can't bring up mods either, since the base game is what should have mechanics required for a world war 2 game...right?

[CowboyDandy]

+1

[Sol Inherent]

4 is unfinished, politics trading and diplomacy are extremly barebones. Lots of important events missing and bad AI.