light tanks

[The Void Boy]

they seem a lot more garbage than they used to be at fighting. is the AI prioritizing more hard attack in their divisions or did light tanks just get nerfed?

[Texonater]

I don't think light tanks recieved a nerf... maby AI changes then?

[Surimi]

I don't think they were changed at all, but they've always been kind of not great. Generally, you want to start phasing them out as soon as medium tanks become available. Late in the game, even basic infantry will be able to pierce most light tanks.

[War Emblem]

Except that there is absolutely nothing historical about that unit composition.

The AI might still build light tanks in late war because most nations were still using them. The Soviets list 2800 light tanks lost in '44. The American and British used the M3 Stuart until the end of the war.

[War Emblem]

How tanks are rated has nothing to do with AI nations still building light tanks. I also have no problem with tanks getting like firepower and stats. Far, far, too much emphasis is placed on stat sheet numbers for this or that AFV. All that really mattered was how they performed operationally. It doesn't matter what a Cromwell's 'stats' are - it is the role it performed as a medium tank which matters. Remember this game is played at the grand strategic level. Individual armor penetration is irrelevant. Now one thing that should be simulated is the operational range of various types of armor. For example - the Soviet medium tanks had double the operational range than the German ones. This should show up in game.

I don't use non-historical division compositions. Not everyone is looking to game the system. Marines get a radio and an engineer company. Anything else is silly, might as well go outfit a division of space marines.

[Fazzan]

Not one proper answer. Yeah I've noticed that they (light tanks) have started to suck something awful (early on when ppl tend to use them). I'm guessing that is has something to do with the really low org the tanks are getting. Isn't that something new? Because they also lose that org really fast even when they IMO shouldn't.

I've also noticed that air superiority have gotten really important. If I dont have planes in the air, I can lose about 50% combat power.

But when I really was pushing it, with 2nd tier medium tanks ready for the invasion of france late '39 (it can be done). Those tanks pretty much sucked and got bogged down in belgium. wtf? There's quite a few new things to consider and I've seen no proper division design guide or strategy guide that explains it properly. (Considering I've previously used mods maybe I should reinstall to rule any bugged files out)

Edit: Just now verified game integrity and no files were abnormal.

[War Emblem]

Uh No, I didn't. I said fan boys obsess over this armor penetration or that gun on a particular AFV. Those factors are largely irrelevant on a Grand Stratetic Scale. The operational functionality of a tank is what matters. I never said anywhere in post 2 that historical doesn't matter. What I said was individual characteristics of AFVs matter far less in actual combat than what war gamers/computer gamers think. Therefore there is nothing wrong with HOI classifying like medium tanks as having the same stats.

[War Emblem]

And since the Soviets, Americans and British won the war, how is it stupid AI production to do what, in part, those nations did? In this case - building light tanks throughout the war.

[Ivan Boroff]

Burke, you are neckbearding hard.

[Beermachine]

The AI can't even differentiate between the usage of tanks vs infantry in any stategic way. Let alone the vastly different usage in battle and strategic maneuvering of light tanks vs heavy.

Given this, having the AI build light tanks instead of medium / heavy for historical reasons when it has no idea how to use them in any historically accurate (or even very basic strategic) way seems rather pointless....

[War Emblem]

Valid point Beermachine. I haven't played enough games in HOI4 to see all the things the AI does with their tanks, but I do know from my previous experience in other HOI titles the AI gets better as patches and content are added.

[Beermachine]

Agreed War Emblem. HOI3 was a complete mess when launched, but with all the expansions and latest patch is a very good game with competent AI.

Still, given Paradox's progress and number of bugs still present, I don't expect HOI4 AI to be at a basic level regarding the usage of tanks for at least another year (and that's being optimistic). At least given Paradox's record it will continue receiving updates for a long time.

[Texonater]

Originally posted by Beermachine:

Agreed War Emblem. HOI3 was a complete mess when launched, but with all the expansions and latest patch is a very good game with competent AI.

Still, given Paradox's progress and number of bugs still present, I don't expect HOI4 AI to be at a basic level regarding the usage of tanks for at least another year (and that's being optimistic). At least given Paradox's record it will continue receiving updates for a long time.

This is why I never worry about PDX main titles EU, Vicky, HOI, CK (not side projects, like sengoku, etc). The main franchises will get plenty of love and YEARS of support and development.

[Kanjejou]

The problem of light tank is that they lose all their effectiveness if you don't put a few point in armor so that infantery cant punch them without anti tank gun or other tank and TD.


their usefull if your a small country or to complete another tank choice.
they are cheap(only oil and steel) and fast to produce(2factory= 1tank /day) allowing you to fight back mobile ennemies that spam motorised/mecanised forces and heavy tanks, you will have loses a lot of them obviously but if you use their mobility they will always be where you need them and a lot more often then med and heavy.

with the new anti air mecanism they are also a good way to bring AA in mobile force cheaply

[War Emblem]

Correct, take Vicky2 for instance - it is almost a perfect name (unless you are an economics major who wants to quibble about the world economy in game). There is no reason to make a V3. If they made a V3 they would need years of development and patches to get it to the level of V2.

It seems each new DLC for HOI4 is going to provide new National Focus trees. If that's the case, there are a lot of nations and updates still to go. I am playing a game now as Russia and the Germans just invaded me in January '41. This is obviously a terrible time to invade Russia. Now is the AI being stupid, or did I force them to invade by starting to fortify the Romanian border and they figured they might as well take their chances now in the winter instead of attacking a fully fortified line in the spring.

One must also remember that HOI is the only main Paradox title that has such detailed combat. Combat in V2, CK and EU is much more abstract. One of the problems HOI has always had is the level of complexity in combat vs ease of command. I can't imagine all the variables that the AI must take into account. And even if the Devs get things working somewhat historically, you can never predict what players are going to do, sometimes acting in a completely unhistorical manner.

[GOT_NO_SKILLZ]

Originally posted by War Emblem:

I said fan boys obsess over this armor penetration or that gun on a particular AFV. Those factors are largely irrelevant on a Grand Stratetic Scale. The operational functionality of a tank is what matters. I never said anywhere in post 2 that historical doesn't matter. What I said was individual characteristics of AFVs matter far less in actual combat than what war gamers/computer gamers think. Therefore there is nothing wrong with HOI classifying like medium tanks as having the same stats.

Except that significant losses of fidelity/simulation accuracy at the tactical level DOES have an aggregate impact at the operational/strategic level. T-34s not having the correct penetration against Panzer IVs (just as an example) will lead to equipment losses accumulating a-historically....which across hundreds of battles over several years will give the German army a very different level of overall combat readiness than it actually possessed. That has an impact on production/industry requirements (allocation for replacing losses) which are definitely a Grand Strategy concern.