The issue with armor

[Nightbringer]

Hello,

How I should create my armored divisions? I noticed that in mid game I struggle to get that armor bonus necessary for breakthroughs. I have huge breakthrogh rating, but it seems that enemy's simple division have better stats than my expensive panzer divisions. I was using 2x2 medium armor and 3x2 mechanized infantry battalions at the time. Should I reduce amount of infantry in order to get higher armor rating?

I even tried replacing mediums with heavies. Haven't tried them in combat yet, but they seem to barely increase armor rating which is unrealistic.

Anyways, this new mechanic is so gamey. I miss HoI4 clear armor penetration mechanics.

[zacharyb]

I personally do 5 Tanks with 5 Motorized/Mechanized, or if my industrial capability is strong enough i'll go with even more tanks, such as 8 Tanks and 2 Mechanized. With the Mobile Warfare Doctrine fully researched in the right tree, 8 Modern Tanks and 2 Mechanized Infantry have almost 1000 Breakthrough, which means less damage taken and more time being spent on the attack.

I don't know for sure what your combat width is, but personally for me I try to always go for 20, especially with tank divisions, because the whole point of tank divisions is to break through the enemy lines, so it's better in my opinion to have less tank divisions but a lot stronger, than more tank divisions but weaker.

You also didn't specify where you were attacking, terrain is important, plus supply, and any other modifiers such as forts or weather effects.

You also made sure the division you were using had a general, right?

Also from the wiki:

Hardness. Represents how large a proportion of the division is made up of battalions which are armored and protected. Divisions with high hardness will suffer more hard attacks and fewer soft attacks. Divisions with low hardness will suffer more soft attacks and fewer hard attacks.

Depending on what you're fighting having a higher hardness might not be a good thing, and if the enemy is able to pierce your armor divisions with ease, you might be better off trying to find another spot to attack.

Also Armor and Hardness aren't the same but are related. I know you didn't say anything about Hardness, but just in case I figured I might as well bring it up.

Again from the wiki:

Armor. Representing the armor of a unit, if the armor value is higher than enemy's piercing value, the unit will receive fewer attacks from the enemy. Higher armor than the enemy's pierce will also increase the number of unit attacks in combat and change the organization damage dice roll per attack from 1d4 to 1d6, as it can move around the battlefield more freely without getting pinned or damaged.

There is really too many variables to know for sure what will help you.

[Nightbringer]

No, I had meant that I'm really struggling to get that armor bonus. As far as I know, piercing is not affected by the terrain. I do not know why, granted, my mediums are not cutting edge, just on par with modern standart. This game should be clearer on issues like these, I really liked HoI3 system which I felt was a lot clearer and better promoted arms race than this one.

Thank you, that was my suspicion, since then I doubled amount of infantry, I suddenly felt that my armor bonus was gone. Having so much armor and so little infantry in armored division is unrealistic and this game is broken. No wonder, new paradox team are amateurs at wargaming.

[Včelí medvídek]

I dont see your issue. Both armor and piercing as counter is very clear and easy to see and understand.

Price for lack infantry in armor units is low org and larger terrain dependance on overall effectivness of division, so it is always needed to find balance.

It is actually done well enough, in reality there were very rarely situation the enemy armor was inprenetable - till some mid-war year (43) almost all tanks (especially on german side) were destroyable by even antitank rifles, not to mention anti-tank guns and HEAT. Even if infantry lacked heavier weapons, they were able immobilize them and destroy by lighter guns or charges (which was very good to see on eeastern front beginning where germans handled most heavy tanks like T34 and KV without large enough calibre heavy wepaons on their side)

[Nightbringer]

My mistake, I used 2x5 armor with 2x5 mechanized. Took away one mechanized line, because I need that armor bonus in order to make a breakthrough. Without armor bonus I simply cannot do it.

Well, not really. Then I see divisions in combat, I cannot see their piercing nor by how much it is being countered. In HoI3 it was portrayed better since I did not had any such issue.

Nope, in reality it was quite the opposite. Light tanks were easily countered by any anti tank units, but I have far bigger issue in the mid game with medium tanks than early in the game. There isn't that transistion period where armor became stronger than its counters of that time. Basic anti tank gun is stronger than even first real medium tanks which are not true. By the start of WW2, 37 cm was outdated against new generation medium armor.


If it is trade off, it does not mean that it is still balanced. In reality, nobody concentrated so much armor in one place. I do not know how much infantry Russians used early in the war with their massive armor divisions, but even they found out that for breakthrough it is better to use smaller units. Now I have 400 heavy tanks in my division and I still struggle to penetrate enemy lines. Sigh.

[Nightbringer]

Another issue, it is 1943 and I see AI has divisions twice as powerful as my own. That really puzzles me since I already have quite hefty infantry divisions. 3x3 infantry and 1 artillery/anti tank/anti air in normal line.

[War Emblem]

One of the huge misconceptions of WW2 is that tanks were all powerful. It was not tanks that opened up lines but artillery and air power - the tanks then exploited those breakthroughs surrounding men and forcing their surrender. What you are seeing is actually very realistic. MOST German divisions had little to none anti-tank capabilities. Everyone knows about the SS Divisions or GrossDeutschland or Panzer Grenadiers but if you weren't in one of these divisions you basically had some panzerfausts and those 37 cm AT guns you think were obsolete. Regular line divisions might not even have had Pak 40s! And yet these divisions still managed to stop a lot of T-34s. I recommend a book called Siege: a novel of the eastern front. It's about regular infantry divisions around Velikiye Luki and how they held out and stopped (for a while) Russian armored attacks.

[Nightbringer]

Hmm, I doubt that an infantry without AT weapons can stop an armored division. Tanks are very potent if used right in concentrated push, but in this game, it seems that it is very difficult to achieve breakthrough. Even with broken AI unit allocation.

Anyways, I still do noy understand. Is there a specific amount of armor is necessary to beat penetration as before or I need enough hardness, that is units to get that bonus? Or it is enough to have grossly understrength divisions who will still get that bonus as long as I can kick start few tanks from repair shop before new offense begins?

[Včelí medvídek]

Well if you would check anti-tank guns and their development, than such transition actualy never existed. (It did for short periods on certain battlefields, but as I mentioned before, even infantry was able deal with heavy tanks at it´s time)

Like Pak 38 gun (5 cm calibre) was in develop since 1935 updated in 1937 with longer barrel, finished in 38 and started prodcution 1939 prior the war - and it was able penetrate even T34/72, for some time most protected tank in wolrd that started production almsot 2 years later with continuous updates and variants on both sides (btw even 3,7 cm calibre was able do that since gerrnas started use ammo enriched by tungsten) - so it was more about producing and delivering on the battlefield in notable amounts.

[Nightbringer]

Well, the issue is that during 1941, majority of anti tank weapons were 37 cm. Most armies did not adopted stronger armaments even later like USA.

"late 1941, however, the widespread introduction of Soviet medium tanks quickly erased the gun's effectiveness; miserable performance against the T-34 on the Eastern Front led to the Pak 36 being nicknamed Heeresanklopfgerät (literally "army door-knocking device"), for its inability to produce any effect on the T-34 aside from notifying the tank of its presence by futilely bouncing rounds off its armor (regardless of the angle or distance)."

Same happened and in French war. French tanks outmatched any anti tank weapon that German could mass field. A single French tank could easily destroy enemy tanks in the dozen. I also heard that infantry were especially suspectible to panic since they had no means to actually fighting enemy armor.

As for heavy tanks, they did not had enough armor to resist AT weapons, that is true. The issue is that it is feasable with only early heavy tank which had multi turreted design. This tank should have higher attack values and in game, it is unrealistic tank. First generation of modern heavy armor was way outside any AT reach and could operate in the battlefield with impunity.

As I said, I played that game recently and still cannot tell you for ♥♥♥♥ if enemy division can penetrate me or not. I only get notification if I'm fine or not. No real actual penetration value is given, just hard attack. I cannot know how much I'm outmatched. Why the hell my armor increases with amount of tanks in the division? And etc etc.

[War Emblem]

Have you ever heard of sticky bombs? The Allies used these against German tanks - basically an explosive stuck in a sock soaked in grease and thrown at the tank tread. It would blow the track disabling the tank and allowing the infantry to swarm it. The Germans had their own versions of this. The harsh reality of WW2 is that close combat was full of examples like this. Desperate infantry would do anything they could to stop tanks. It was very rare you had 'ideal' weapon vs weapon match ups where equal armor penetrating guns were firing at tanks. Infantry can and did stop armored attacks, especially in unfavorable tank ground. Heck, the Soviets brought an entire German army to a standstill at Stalingrad. The Germans stopped the overwhelming superiority of the Allies at Monte Cassino. The Canadians were stuck trying to take Caen for weeks in the Cobra breakout because the 12th SS had soldiers in every house and hovel firing panzerfausts or throwing grenades at their tanks. At that point in '44 the Germans had virtually no anti-tank weapons left except for the kampfgruppe StuGs which were rushed to the hot zone spots and the Tiger battalions.

Now in game - since they didn't give us a manual or game design notes I am not sure what the values of the penetration and breakthrough represent. I don't know the chance of infantry mounting a 'rugged defense'. Remember though - you actually want your tank divisions to AVOID the infantry lol, encircle them and cut off their supplies don't fight street to street with them.

[=CAW=aldarions-lament]

Ok heres how you make armour work (IN GAME)
1: have 1 heavy tank in each division and use army xp to buff its armour stat (this will slow you down) this should give you the double damage + defence bonus
2) Spam artillery (1 frontline unit per line the rest arty, motorsed rocket artillery is the easiet to spam and adds something like 40+ soft attack to your divisions, if you have x2 bonus for the heavy tanks impenatrable armour thats 80 soft attack PER Element!!!
3) Take advisors/ doctrines that buff army attack or armour attack (if you wnet the SPG varient road) this can give each artillery over 100 soft attack for a theoretical max of 4000 if your division is full
3) Have air supeiority (bombers are good but fighter spam is more important) this will greatly debuf the enemy toughnes

4) Laugh as the entire enemy army collpases on day 1 under the wieght of 2000+ soft attack

(note armies witht that much arty have terrible organisation will need to rest after a couple of battles, they will also take more losses than a more blanced force and have issues on any terrain other than plains)

[Včelí medvídek]

There is piercing information in details of combat - just hover mouse over enemy units and you see it. Value of your armor is shown in template

If your armor is higher or enemepy piercing is is also represented by icons during fight.

[Nightbringer]

Postat inițial de War Emblem:

Have you ever heard of sticky bombs? The Allies used these against German tanks - basically an explosive stuck in a sock soaked in grease and thrown at the tank tread. It would blow the track disabling the tank and allowing the infantry to swarm it. The Germans had their own versions of this. The harsh reality of WW2 is that close combat was full of examples like this. Desperate infantry would do anything they could to stop tanks. It was very rare you had 'ideal' weapon vs weapon match ups where equal armor penetrating guns were firing at tanks. Infantry can and did stop armored attacks, especially in unfavorable tank ground. Heck, the Soviets brought an entire German army to a standstill at Stalingrad. The Germans stopped the overwhelming superiority of the Allies at Monte Cassino. The Canadians were stuck trying to take Caen for weeks in the Cobra breakout because the 12th SS had soldiers in every house and hovel firing panzerfausts or throwing grenades at their tanks. At that point in '44 the Germans had virtually no anti-tank weapons left except for the kampfgruppe StuGs which were rushed to the hot zone spots and the Tiger battalions.

Now in game - since they didn't give us a manual or game design notes I am not sure what the values of the penetration and breakthrough represent. I don't know the chance of infantry mounting a 'rugged defense'. Remember though - you actually want your tank divisions to AVOID the infantry lol, encircle them and cut off their supplies don't fight street to street with them.

I respect your oppinion mate, but you grossly overestimate effectiveness of infantry based AT. They made up minority of tank kills and were only effective as infantry self defense tool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENc2ZDgkv7Q

[Nightbringer]

Postat inițial de Včelí medvídek:

There is piercing information in details of combat - just hover mouse over enemy units and you see it. Value of your armor is shown in template

If your armor is higher or enemepy piercing is is also represented by icons during fight.

Where? I only can see hard attack. Anyways, I deleted this game. After conquering entire europe and finishing killing nazies, I realized that I play this game too much. I ussually delete this game as motivation not to play it. It is that bad. :/

[Nightbringer]

Postat inițial de =CAW=aldarions-lament:

Ok heres how you make armour work (IN GAME)
1: have 1 heavy tank in each division and use army xp to buff its armour stat (this will slow you down) this should give you the double damage + defence bonus
2) Spam artillery (1 frontline unit per line the rest arty, motorsed rocket artillery is the easiet to spam and adds something like 40+ soft attack to your divisions, if you have x2 bonus for the heavy tanks impenatrable armour thats 80 soft attack PER Element!!!
3) Take advisors/ doctrines that buff army attack or armour attack (if you wnet the SPG varient road) this can give each artillery over 100 soft attack for a theoretical max of 4000 if your division is full
3) Have air supeiority (bombers are good but fighter spam is more important) this will greatly debuf the enemy toughnes

4) Laugh as the entire enemy army collpases on day 1 under the wieght of 2000+ soft attack

(note armies witht that much arty have terrible organisation will need to rest after a couple of battles, they will also take more losses than a more blanced force and have issues on any terrain other than plains)

Yeah, I tried that. The issue with that are imobility or high expense of mobile unit, huge supply consumption and inability to operate in all terrain. I would be beaten badly if I tried same trick in taking over Japan since my supplies always were low and it was really difficult to beat Japanese counter attacks with that I had.

To put things into perspective, it is 1947, I did not waged all out war with allies for over an year now. Yet, I still cannot motorize my 100 divisions. That is also a modest number since I started the war in 1939 against Germans. If I'm playing historically, I will be making 80 divisions at once by 1941 in anticipation. The thing here is that mobility is very expensive thing. I only tend to keep it for my mobile reserves of breakthrough units and majority of my forces will remain unmotorized.

I ended up attaching medium tank division to every infantry division I had and ironically, I achieved almost universal armor superiority which was my trumph card. That and the fact that I built almost nothing, but fighters for my airforce. 4 full lines of it to beat allies control of the skies.

There are a lot of ways to win. Your soft attack strategy is inherently flawed since I could counter you with mechanized/armored divisions for similar cost and take only minimal damage from your artillery.