My Issue with the Great Purge

[harald]

I was just wondering - and I'm by no means suggesting that the holocaust or any other form of genocide/violence against innocent people should be included in the game - why does paradox feel that it is okay to include the Great Purge as a game mechanic which did affect civilians?

Again, I'm not saying that this is grounds to include the holocaust or anything similar as I know that the national focus only affects the military aspects of the Soviet Union and a potential Trotsky coup. The only thing I'm suggesting is that it's slightly hypocritical of Paradox to get so riled up about people mentioning the holocaust when there were many atrocities during the Great Purge which affected many civilians too.

To quote Stalin: "Who's going to remember all this riff-raff in ten or twenty years' time? No one."

Turns out Stalin was right after all.

I just don't see how the deaths of one group of innocent civilians should be treated differently than another group.

[p2]

because it isnt a game mechanic to an extent of killing civilians, it gives you some nerfs, remove some generals and thats about it. its nothing but a focus either

[harald]

Originally posted by p2:

because it isnt a game mechanic to an extent of killing civilians, it gives you some nerfs, remove some generals and thats about it. its nothing but a focus either

In doing the Great Purge you're still killing those civilians even though you don't feel the results. During PDX Con, one of the devs did a video talking about the future of HOI4. In that video, he did a Q&A session at the end.

One of the questions was related to the potential inclusion of the Holocaust (one I must admit, was quite cringey). In reply the dev said - and I'm about to paraphrase so I apologise ahead of time for any potential mistakes - "we don't want players to have to make that choice". The estimated number of dead was between 600,000 and 3 million.

So in doing that focus, you are still killing those civilians despite the fact you never see the results which almost seems worse.

[p2]

Originally posted by Del Tarrant:

Originally posted by p2:

because it isnt a game mechanic to an extent of killing civilians, it gives you some nerfs, remove some generals and thats about it. its nothing but a focus either

In doing the Great Purge you're still killing those civilians even though you don't feel the results. During PDX Con, one of the devs did a video talking about the future of HOI4. In that video, he did a Q&A session at the end.

One of the questions was related to the potential inclusion of the Holocaust (one I must admit, was quite cringey). In reply the dev said - and I'm about to paraphrase so I apologise ahead of time for any potential mistakes - "we don't want players to have to make that choice". The estimated number of dead was between 600,000 and 3 million.

So in doing that focus, you are still killing those civilians despite the fact you never see the results which almost seems worse.

just because the name of the focus is the great purge doesnt mean it is historically accurate, no civilians are mentioned and no population is lost.

[harald]

Originally posted by p2:

Originally posted by Del Tarrant:

In doing the Great Purge you're still killing those civilians even though you don't feel the results. During PDX Con, one of the devs did a video talking about the future of HOI4. In that video, he did a Q&A session at the end.

One of the questions was related to the potential inclusion of the Holocaust (one I must admit, was quite cringey). In reply the dev said - and I'm about to paraphrase so I apologise ahead of time for any potential mistakes - "we don't want players to have to make that choice". The estimated number of dead was between 600,000 and 3 million.

So in doing that focus, you are still killing those civilians despite the fact you never see the results which almost seems worse.

just because the name of the focus is the great purge doesnt mean it is historically accurate, no civilians are mentioned and no population is lost.

My main issue is with Paradox's hypocrisy on the issue. They're fine including this but seem to recoil at the thought of any other atrocity committed within that time period. It also seems to be a bit ignorant of the facts if you make the Great Purge not have it's true effect. Even in it's in game form, you're murdering innocent military leaders/officers.

[Sexy Beast]

HOI4 is all about military. The great purge affects the military, the holocaust does not

[Dandy]

As far as I can tell in my playthroughs the soviets are rly rly powerful and will roll over everything in sight when they get going. The purge is a debuff on their military that will stop them from dominating the game through early invasions. It doesnt work if you are playing as them but if the computer didnt get a debuff it would defeat germany a lot earlier (and it does always defeat germany anyway).
I guess they could put the holocaust into the game as a resistance reducing mechanic or if the resource system was different they could use it to raise war funds. As the game stands the purge serves as a game mechanic, the holocaust would not. Thats not to say they will not include other events in dlc later down the line but for now 1 event works and the other doesnt.

[harald]

Originally posted by Judge Fudge:

As far as I can tell in my playthroughs the soviets are rly rly powerful and will roll over everything in sight when they get going. The purge is a debuff on their military that will stop them from dominating the game through early invasions. It doesnt work if you are playing as them but if the computer didnt get a debuff it would defeat germany a lot earlier (and it does always defeat germany anyway).
I guess they could put the holocaust into the game as a resistance reducing mechanic or if the resource system was different they could use it to raise war funds. As the game stands the purge serves as a game mechanic, the holocaust would not. Thats not to say they will not include other events in dlc later down the line but for now 1 event works and the other doesnt.

Again I'll reitorate, I'm not calling for the holocaust to be put in the game.

In reply to your other point, that actually makes a lot of sense. It would just be a bit more respectful to those who died in the purge if you actually did take a hit to your manpower etc. If you're gonna do something like put the purge into the game at least make it have realistic consequences.

[bun]

Originally posted by Del Tarrant:

Originally posted by Judge Fudge:

As far as I can tell in my playthroughs the soviets are rly rly powerful and will roll over everything in sight when they get going. The purge is a debuff on their military that will stop them from dominating the game through early invasions. It doesnt work if you are playing as them but if the computer didnt get a debuff it would defeat germany a lot earlier (and it does always defeat germany anyway).
I guess they could put the holocaust into the game as a resistance reducing mechanic or if the resource system was different they could use it to raise war funds. As the game stands the purge serves as a game mechanic, the holocaust would not. Thats not to say they will not include other events in dlc later down the line but for now 1 event works and the other doesnt.

Again I'll reitorate, I'm not calling for the holocaust to be put in the game.

In reply to your other point, that actually makes a lot of sense. It would just be a bit more respectful to those who died in the purge if you actually did take a hit to your manpower etc. If you're gonna do something like put the purge into the game at least make it have realistic consequences.

Doesn't it remove generals? I think that's enough, I mean you can't tie huge minus manpower with that event and it would be kinda unrealistic to have very little manpower removed.

[Golix]

Gosh people, can you read and understand what he said? 3 straight comments repliying to him and focusing on the wrong things. Like, if I had a Focus called "Holocaust" that "delete" some officers and manpower would be fine if they didnt mention that you are killing people? Thats what some of you said with the Great Purge

[p2]

Originally posted by Golix:

Gosh people, can you read and understand what he said? 3 straight comments repliying to him and focusing on the wrong things. Like, if I had a Focus called "Holocaust" that "delete" some officers and manpower would be fine if they didnt mention that you are killing people? Thats what some of you said with the Great Purge

it would be fine

[Freelancer]

Now that you mention it, the only reason they may had put in the Great Purge is that to debuff the USSR to make it easier for Germany easier to handle.

And the reason they didn't include other massacres e.g Holocaust because they didn't affect much militarily. Don't get me wrong tho, the Holocaust is still horrible and millions of people died, but the Great Purge had a direct effect of weakening the USSR by killing of competent officers, reducing the effectiveness of the Red Army greatly, allowing the successes of Operation Barbarossa.

[IrationalFear]

Mechanically, the Great Purge affects the military significantly. The only other instance of large-scale civilian deaths affecting the military capabilities of the countries involved are Strategic Bombers attacking factories, which is also included in game. There is no mechanical or gameplay reason to include massacres such as, say Katyn or Nanjing, but there is for the Purge.
But, in the future, when you are about to criticise a game about equal/unequal representations of mass deaths, ask yourself one simple question:
"Do the develpers want to sell the game in Germany?"
If the answer is "yes", then you should be aware of the censorship laws involved in purchaseable media in Germany, which is very restrictive about anything Nazi-related, including the Holocaust.

Take a look at any number of WW2 game forums and you will find the same questions of "why isn't X or Y Nazi official or slogan or insignia or flag in the game?". It's the same reason almost every time: you want to sell a game in Germany, then you have to cut some of that content. Censorship and content in games are limited be the strictist censorship policy of one of the markets, not the least.

[harald]

Originally posted by IrationalFear:

Mechanically, the Great Purge affects the military significantly. The only other instance of large-scale civilian deaths affecting the military capabilities of the countries involved are Strategic Bombers attacking factories, which is also included in game. There is no mechanical or gameplay reason to include massacres such as, say Katyn or Nanjing, but there is for the Purge.
But, in the future, when you are about to criticise a game about equal/unequal representations of mass deaths, ask yourself one simple question:
"Do the develpers want to sell the game in Germany?"
If the answer is "yes", then you should be aware of the censorship laws involved in purchaseable media in Germany, which is very restrictive about anything Nazi-related, including the Holocaust.

Take a look at any number of WW2 game forums and you will find the same questions of "why isn't X or Y Nazi official or slogan or insignia or flag in the game?". It's the same reason almost every time: you want to sell a game in Germany, then you have to cut some of that content. Censorship and content in games are limited be the strictist censorship policy of one of the markets, not the least.

I'm not saying that Paradox should incorporate the Holocaust, I'm more concerned with the fact that the deaths have been boiled down to a few generals and an advisor or two. If they're going to involve the great purge they should have at least shown that it was a truly terrible event.

Originally posted by Zulgaines:

At the end of the day it all boils down to Paradox wanting to desperately avoid the semitic crusaders and the anti-semitic flamers come to wage war with them.

That's it. That's all there is to it, people's personal hangups ruin everything, more news at 11.

Yet another thing the alt-righters have ruined.

[harald]

Originally posted by Zulgaines:

No, no, see you're just adding to the problem when you say "Another thing the alt-righters have ruined".

You can't stop hate by slinging hate, it just brings more toxic arguments into play that might not have happened before personal or ideological attacks.

My joke went down well I see!

But seriously I do see your point. It's like bombing Syria and expecting the people living there to not join the people the people dropping the bombs were trying to destroy.

I was just making a joke in my usual wank sarcastic manner but I can see how that can be taken the wrong way. Wasn't even funny either.

[harald]

Originally posted by Zulgaines:

It's all good, I actually just get really annoyed over the hoops this game has to jump through because "Some history is just unaccepble to portray in a game".

Meanwhile literal torture and genocide simulators on the market.

Making the player question their morals? Who wants to do that in a game?

I'm pretty sure a third person shooter for the PS3 called Spec Ops: The Line had more moral questioning than a world war 2 game where you can play as Germany.