X4: Foundations

X4: Foundations

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Imagine: Planetary landing ... X5?
As above. I would love this feature so much. Not possible? Well, you haven't played Empyrion, Space Engineers or No Man's Sky.

My dream for X5 or even X4 Beta 8?
Last edited by F1tgal911; Jan 16 @ 7:20am
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It's not that it's not possible, but planetary landings like even NMS would take a HUGE amount of work. I'm no dev but I can extrapolate the gargantuan effort this would take. Egosoft would pretty much have to drop everything, employ extra Devs and then take years putting it altogether.

How long did NMS take to get where they are now? Find out.

The imagination is great isn't it? The reality is much tougher.
zpc Jan 16 @ 8:04am 
Never for X4 and for X5 you'd have to both convince the multiplayer crowd as well as Egosoft as of why it brings anything to the table.

Also, it's kind of a running gag for ages. I'd say before there will be planet landing there will be multiplayer. And the latter is highly controversial to begin with....

The thing about possiblity: from a technical PoV there is a lot possible. Just not everything at the same time. NMS or Empyrion would beg for mercy with the same level of simulated content of X4 AND a small team like Egosoft - just like X4 is.

Having said that I'd love to have some rudimentary planet interactivity. Starting with direct access to their encyclopedia entries when looking at them (ship scanner yadda yadda instead of navigating boring tree menus), Freelancer like mini-locations to land on and / or Sins of a Solar Empire like abstract trading / planet development. I wouldn't need neither atmospheric flight nor navigating over empty procedural grounds with repetitive content.
Last edited by zpc; Jan 16 @ 8:07am
I would rather be able to control a squad taking over ships in first person than planetary landings.
Gibbo Jan 16 @ 2:01pm 
Be cool if we could fly down and attack them. Weaken them ready for an invasion. Carpet bomb their cities and destroy their infrastructure. Have a new weapon. Bombs! Have them in loads of different flavours from plain old nukes to planet killers. Gotta have some kind of napalm as well.
Originally posted by F1tgal911:
As above. I would love this feature so much. Not possible? Well, you haven't played Empyrion, Space Engineers or No Man's Sky.

My dream for X5 or even X4 Beta 8?
It's not that it's not possible, it's that it'd add zero gameplay value and cost a whole lot of money and time to develop anyway.

No Man's Sky is actually the perfect example of that - you have billions of planets and a giant-ass universe, but there's absolutely nothing to do there. Tons of different weapons, biomes and spaceships... and it makes nearly zero difference which you pick or where you go.
It's boring and shallow as hell.

If you want to have planetary landings you also need a gameplay reason to land on planets. You need stuff to do there.
Stuff that adds something to the game it doesn't already have without diluting the core experience that your fans play the game for - because i sure as hell don't play X4 for some kind of trashy, procedurally generated walking simulator experience like NMS.
Jarf Jan 16 @ 2:30pm 
I'd settle for non brain dead AI and star systems instead of tiny little sectors, but explorable planets would be pretty nifty.
I was always thinking that there could be some kind of "Planetary Mass Driver" station or something that sends things back and forth between a planets surface and space, so you could trade directly with planets instead of just this weird closed system up in space, always thought it was odd that there are only stations and no way to interact with planets, apart from terraforming or something.

Would be cool to maybe go down to the surface using the station as well, even if you could only explore a small part of a planet at a time, maybe set up small settlements or something, although thats getting dangerously close to Starfield, lmao, but being able to set up settlements as an alternative to building stations would be interesting.
Doom Jan 16 @ 6:44pm 
Originally posted by F1tgal911:
As above. I would love this feature so much. Not possible? Well, you haven't played Empyrion, Space Engineers or No Man's Sky.
I played all those games, and Elite Dangerous on top. While I would welcome this feature, I do not feel strongly about it. Because in all games that implements it, it typically ends up being a "meh" feature.

In all those games planets have problems. They're either tiny, or they're resemble each other too much. Space Engineers and Empyrion have baby planets. No Man's Sky and Elite Dangerous has same-looking planets.

Having life-sized star systems that move would be a much more interesting feature.
Last edited by Doom; Jan 16 @ 6:45pm
What's a planet offer over a station? No seriously. Mechanically, what does it do over a station? It's just an aesthetic backdrop right? Or are you expecting some massive endeavor to add planets similar to those games you listed? Are we still expected to function at the scale we are now? Cuz I've played Empyrion and enjoyed it, but I never approached anything remotely as large as my first 24 hours with x4. Planets in Empyrion have like maybe a hundred people on them, tops. Planets in x4 have literally billions of people on them. Hardware doesn't exist to simulate that today. It actually is impossible. Unless you're wanting a doomsday event to effectively wipe out 99.9999% of the x4 populations. Then we could talk about that being simulatable but then the series loses all sense of the scale it's built up over the last games.
Doom Jan 16 @ 7:19pm 
Originally posted by Mordtziel:
What's a planet offer over a station? No seriously. Mechanically, what does it do over a station?
That's not quite right question, because there are a ton of things you can't do on stations, but would be cool if you were able to do them.

Planetary landings are immersion features. Their primary purpose is to increase positive feelings in playerbase and attract more players. Because "spacesim where you can land on planets" is more interesting than "spacesim". By adding more of those features you'll be drawing more people in. NMS did this, for example, when they added fishing. Because "space flight game where you can FISH" sounds more interesting than one where you can't fish.

There are a ton of activities that would be possible on planets and not on stations. Primary one would be racing, then base building, then interior construction, then maybe ground combat, atmospheric flight, and so on.

In context of X4 the easiest feature to ask for would be landing on asteroid or planetoids. One of them is in teladi space.

I'll remind you that in Elite 2 frontier it was possible to land on planets. Though there wasn't much point. And X3 Reunion had planetary flight mission, with a chase through the city. Though admittedly it was quite horrible.
Last edited by Doom; Jan 16 @ 7:35pm
That's not quite right question, because there are a ton of things you can't do on stations, but would be cool if you were able to do them.
No, it kinda is the right question because I'm asking what the expectation is for planets beyond just being a backdrop. You've listed some things. I'm also asking how all this is expected to fit in the x universe with the scale of everything.
Doom Jan 16 @ 11:40pm 
Originally posted by Mordtziel:
That's not quite right question, because there are a ton of things you can't do on stations, but would be cool if you were able to do them.
No, it kinda is the right question because I'm asking what the expectation is for planets beyond just being a backdrop. You've listed some things. I'm also asking how all this is expected to fit in the x universe with the scale of everything.
That's not what you asked.

Your question was "Mechanically, what does it do over a station?"

That creates expectations that you have combative stance towards planetary landings, and will attempt "reduction ad absurdum" where you'd argue that lack of mechanical benefit means the feature is not worth considering.

Wording of a question matters.

Originally posted by Mordtziel:
I'm also asking how all this is expected to fit in the x universe with the scale of everything.
Play Elite Dangerous, pick a planet, land on a biggest crater, walk outside, look up.
Or, play Rebirth or Rebirth VR and zoom around Omycron Lyrae, Radiant Heaven zone. This area:
https://ibb.co/MhsjCgq

X4 operates on a very small scale for a space game. Sectors are mere hundred kilometers across. You can run out of bounds if you have a 20 km/s ship, before it finishes accelerating. The game has difficulty demonstrating scale, and everything usually looks and feels small. That creates distinct feeling that you're not flying in a space but on a gigantic abstract space grid.

Planets are colossal objects. They're humongous. They exist to drive point home, that you, your empire and fleet are an insignificant spec of space dust that will become invisible from just a hundred kilometers away.

However, because human depth perception stops working at something like 200 meters, and because with lack of atmospheric effects humans have difficulty estimating scale, to demonstrate how large something is, you need to approach it, or land on it. Otherwise a planet will look like a textured ball in space.

The scene above is efficient in demonstrating scale, because superhighway zooms you around a sector, first it demonstrates you a planet from afar, then from a closer spot, then the game slams the surface in your face.

That's the point of planets and planetary landings. To make the game feel like space, by demonstrating how huge space is, and how small you are. Then the space will feel real.
Last edited by Doom; Jan 17 @ 12:19am
Mordtziel Jan 17 @ 12:21am 
That's not what you asked.

Your question was "Mechanically, what does it do over a station?"

That creates expectations that you have combative stance towards planetary landings, and will attempt "reduction ad absurdum" where you'd argue that lack of mechanical benefit means the feature is not worth considering.

Wording of a question matters.
It is what I asked because when I think of planets in space games, my default is thinking about them like Freelancer's planets, which were just glorified stations. I don't think by default that we want to add something along the level of say Empyrion because we don't even have that depth in the Space we have now.

As for the rest of what you said, I guess my follow up is going to be: what is the goal of the scale added by allowing a planet to be fully interacted with? What would be the scale of that X game? Would it just be around a planet or 3? I'm pretty sure that would go over about as well as Rebirth did with the community. Like literally what is the level of expectation here? These planets we have in the games are absolutely massive. Like let's just take Shiokaze over in Getsu Fune as an example. It's estimated between 2-10x larger than Earth. That puts it around 25,484-127,420 km in size. Are we expecting this to be the size of the sector as well? Maybe an extra couple hundred-thousand km? Split up into a dozen or so sectors? Are we expecting it to be densely packed with stations like the satellites around our own planet? Are we expecting the ground of the planet to be littered with stuff? Cities? Are we expecting to only have chunks of it that we interact with? Or the entire planet? Is all of this supposed to be expanded to other planets as well?

Like, yea, the space we interact with is small in the grand scheme of the concept of space, but like...what the hell are we filling all this space in with? I can usually fit a pretty dam overkill solution of a factory into just a 7x5x4 area, much less the 20x20x20 area the game allows and far from something as expansive as even a small dwarf planet (~950 km). I guess those would be more of the goal here? Dwarf planets? At least they could realistically fit into some of these sectors we have in-game or at least wouldn't be much bigger than some of them.

Though I'm'a be honest, I certainly would appreciate it more if they focused on the space part of the space game instead of trying to add an entire other game into it. I need a game that can handle a few thousand ships before we can start talking about a few thousand stations, much less a fully functioning planet infrastructure.
Doom Jan 17 @ 12:59am 
Originally posted by Mordtziel:
It is what I asked because when I think of planets in space games, my default is thinking about them like Freelancer's planets, which were just glorified stations.
You need to check out Space Engineers, Kerbal, No Man's Sky, Elite Dangerous (with Horizons). Maybe Elite 2 Frontier, though there's no planetary activity whatsoever. Also see Space Engine. Freelancer effectively uses Privateer model of the planets, but tech changed since. Usable planets exist.

Originally posted by Mordtziel:
As for the rest of what you said, I guess my follow up is going to be: what is the goal of the scale added by allowing a planet to be fully interacted with? What would be the scale of that X game?
The goal would be to make space game feel like space. And not as a grid.

Have you ever tried to do this, for example?
https://ibb.co/cTp7xjw

Originally posted by Mordtziel:
Like literally what is the level of expectation here?
Why would it matter? Effectively this is feedback/feature request. "Would be great to have planets". It can be vague and unspecific. Dev would normally evaluate whether this is worth investing into, or then do something. Or do nothing. You, however, are not a dev.

Originally posted by Mordtziel:
It's estimated between 2-10x larger than Earth. That puts it around 25,484-127,420 km in size. Are we
That's overcomplicating things. Sectors exist for convenience and do not have any significance. It is just a small zone where people spawn. That's it. So sector size does not need to change, as it means nothing. Space, in the first place, is not made out of sectors. Sector is a waypoint that exists at some location.

To answer the rest of the response:
* No, you do not subdivide everything into sectors.
* You fill space with void. Also see realspace mods.
* Not, that's not one other game.
* No, there won't be thousand stations.

A lot of those small questions can be answered immediately with a very obvious solution.

Play Elite and see how it works there, eh?
Last edited by Doom; Jan 17 @ 1:02am
Geist Jan 17 @ 2:13am 
I think they could do a planet landing if it was just fly down and land on a platform (like a space station dock), walk around that platform (like a space station dock), visit a trading corner (like a space station dock), maybe a small plot of land outside that is walkable (like the timeline facility) and have everything else just be a fancy background with cityscapes and so on without any interaction. This would add to the immersion of landing on a planet, but not be completely out of their expertise.

You could ensure that it still feels somewhat believable by only allowing landings at connection points that boost you to the surface, like the superhighways that boost you through a large sector. (otherwise it would take hours to land anyway)

It could come with a "civilian economy" that is not based on building ships and stations, and that can only be traded there, such as rare Teladi art from Ianamus Zura that the space Teladi want to buy at their trading stations, or 3D religious artefacts that could be smuggled from the Godrealm to the Holy Order planets.

Anything else would probably be a long way from what they can actually achieve with the engine and the resources they have.
Last edited by Geist; Jan 17 @ 2:20am
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Date Posted: Jan 16 @ 7:19am
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