Anyone else wish the modding SDK made it easy to create stories?

[Kankaku]

It's a "sandbox game" but one of the main features always eluded in the genre is a way to make story content. When that should be the MAIN feature!

Being able to create stories you can post up for other players to check out would make this the best space sim out there. I don't understand why this isn't talked about more. If they toned down the economy and fleet stuff by like half and put those resources into tools to make content for eachother this game would blow up.

The key thing is making it easy and accessible.

[PeaceMaker]

I was of the impression once that it would be easy to create costumes for NPCs... It isn't.

It seems clear to me that there's a lot about this game's infrastructure that makes it real hard to do much with it modding wise - unless a person is very skilled. Modding shouldn't take up so much of your free time figuring it out that it becomes a 2nd job.

[Kankaku]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย PeaceMaker:

I was of the impression once that it would be easy to create costumes for NPCs... It isn't.

It seems clear to me that there's a lot about this game's infrastructure that makes it real hard to do much with it modding wise - unless a person is very skilled. Modding shouldn't take up so much of your free time figuring it out that it becomes a 2nd job.

Yeah it's hard to do anything with it. The most non user friendly thing I've ever seen honestly. It'd be easier to just have access to the loose files and the engine than whatever this is.

[flywlyx]

Modding SDK? X4 doesn’t have anything like that. You should start by wishing for the assistance of an SDK in the first place. They have a blender add-on but that is all you will get from them.

[zpc]

I guess the main reason why there isn't much talk about that [here] is that the main modding community is @egosoft HQ.

Also, they are a very small studio - even immensly bigger ones haven't released tools of that magnitude. A klicky-buntie tool (german expression for WYSIWYG applications) is also somewhat unrealistic. Modding is generally about people figuring out those things on their own, writing their own tools and helping each other out. That's how modding started at least. Even decades after the "first mods" [in games] it is still very rare for companies to release fully documented asset pipeline guides let alone easy-to-use editors. (to be frank - sometimes those doesn't even exist for the dev teams as well).

Game development isn't about firing up an editor and designing your game. Some schools or engines might give that impression but that's hardly the case for every game.

Having said that - Egosoft tried in the past to make it easier to create missions, even worked on a web-based application. The MD (mission director) is the result of that. But it never became that comfortable that people without any technical knowledge could start working on missions. It also never was about creating complex dialogues in 3D scenes or other fancy stuff like that.

A discussion wether it is possible to get today should IMHO be held @egosoft.com. Never give up trying - but you should team up with the other creative folks / modders. As Egosoft lately grew maybe there is some fertile ground. As flywlyx mentioned it already the (complex) asset pipeline for adding ships got an official blender plugin some time ago and the team lead for the 3D stuff is in general working on modernizing the asset workflow (read: bring all that proprietary stuff to blender). But so far NPCs / animations seem to be an exception as those heavily rely on proprietary stuff. But better head over to egosoft.com and learn that in detail for yourself. (maybe there was some change as well - my knowledge here is about 1year old)

[DrunkenOrca]

Most info here
https://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?f=181&t=402382

Modding X4 is terrible as well as xml scripting.

[Kankaku]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย zpc:

I guess the main reason why there isn't much talk about that [here] is that the main modding community is @egosoft HQ.

Also, they are a very small studio - even immensly bigger ones haven't released tools of that magnitude. A klicky-buntie tool (german expression for WYSIWYG applications) is also somewhat unrealistic. Modding is generally about people figuring out those things on their own, writing their own tools and helping each other out. That's how modding started at least. Even decades after the "first mods" [in games] it is still very rare for companies to release fully documented asset pipeline guides let alone easy-to-use editors. (to be frank - sometimes those doesn't even exist for the dev teams as well).

Game development isn't about firing up an editor and designing your game. Some schools or engines might give that impression but that's hardly the case for every game.

Having said that - Egosoft tried in the past to make it easier to create missions, even worked on a web-based application. The MD (mission director) is the result of that. But it never became that comfortable that people without any technical knowledge could start working on missions. It also never was about creating complex dialogues in 3D scenes or other fancy stuff like that.

A discussion wether it is possible to get today should IMHO be held @egosoft.com. Never give up trying - but you should team up with the other creative folks / modders. As Egosoft lately grew maybe there is some fertile ground. As flywlyx mentioned it already the (complex) asset pipeline for adding ships got an official blender plugin some time ago and the team lead for the 3D stuff is in general working on modernizing the asset workflow (read: bring all that proprietary stuff to blender). But so far NPCs / animations seem to be an exception as those heavily rely on proprietary stuff. But better head over to egosoft.com and learn that in detail for yourself. (maybe there was some change as well - my knowledge here is about 1year old)

Bohemia had 12 employees during the development of ArmA 2. Anything outside of the game or a something on the steam page with a good/easy interface the vast majority of people won't touch. Modders or not.

Like I said in a previous comment it would legitimately be easier to just have loose files and the engine to work with than whatever we got now. Which is crazy.

I'm kind of tired of games calling themselves "sandboxes" while either being incredibly empty with nothing to do other than the set stuff allowed in the "sandbox"(imo completely contradicts what a sandbox is) and not providing tools to actually create content. Because the tools provided don't allow to make content unless I were to decompile the game and make my own tools. Might as well make my own game at that point lol.

This game seems like it is made to create story content for but the tools just aren't there. It's baffling. Another thing missing is character controller tools. It's just weird. It's the most locked down "mod friendly" game I've ever played aside from the ones that only allow language mods.

The tools to do it are kind of there but they're so unnecessarily convoluted it would make no one want to use them. Once you do figure out how to use them you realize you can't do what you want with them.

[Kankaku]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย DrunkenOrca:

Most info here
https://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?f=181&t=402382

Modding X4 is terrible as well as xml scripting.

It seems like it's just mainly for model swaps and retextures.

[Kankaku]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย flywlyx:

Modding SDK? X4 doesn’t have anything like that. You should start by wishing for the assistance of an SDK in the first place. They have a blender add-on but that is all you will get from them.

I phrased it that way in case anyone that wasn't familiar wanted to take part in the conversation. In my defense there is a "toolset" that's provided that some might consider an SDK but I'd say you're right in saying it's not.

I'd prefer an actual SDK with a robust easy to use toolset. Imagine if they limited the game to 50 ships in a fleet and focused the dev time on making these tools and a really clean and easily navigable UI. Game would be peak and the performance would be great. We all would be able to make cool story content for eachother.

I don't know probably a pipe dream.

[zpc]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kankaku:

I don't know probably a pipe dream.

At least your definition of sandbox is not the same as the dream of the devs - they want to build a huge universe simulation. That it is a sandbox is a secondary effect.

The biggest mods created (in the whole x series) were along the line of total conversions, adding new races (from the books) and adding more and more ships as well as rebalancing weapons. One of the biggest mods from X³ turned out to be the groundwork of an official extension - Terran Conflict (which also added the frigate / M7 class which was introduced along other new ship classes in a mod called Xtended). Other "huge" mods were around providing more ship and economy functionality - even better statistics and improved UI.

For X4 there are various big mods - from a random universe generator to total conversions like Star Wars Interworlds or complete rebalancing like VRO.

[Kankaku]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย zpc:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kankaku:

I don't know probably a pipe dream.

At least your definition of sandbox is not the same as the dream of the devs - they want to build a huge universe simulation. That it is a sandbox is a secondary effect.

The biggest mods created (in the whole x series) were along the line of total conversions, adding new races (from the books) and adding more and more ships as well as rebalancing weapons. One of the biggest mods from X³ turned out to be the groundwork of an official extension - Terran Conflict (which also added the frigate / M7 class which was introduced along other new ship classes in a mod called Xtended). Other "huge" mods were around providing more ship and economy functionality - even better statistics and improved UI.

My definition of sandbox is what a sandbox actually is lol. Think about it. Like in the literal sense. When playing in a sandbox as a kid you could create things with the sand and bring your own toys. If that's not the case for the game then it isn't a sandbox game.

The conversion mods you're referring to while cool aren't really relevant as they're just new models, retextures, text swaps and a couple functions added to the code base.

Big difference between that and something like Eden in ArmA 3.

[DrunkenOrca]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kankaku:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย DrunkenOrca:

Most info here
https://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?f=181&t=402382

Modding X4 is terrible as well as xml scripting.

It seems like it's just mainly for model swaps and retextures.

Yep, for other stuff i guess best option is to extract all assets and scripts, learn and extend. Ccut scenes and missions are scripts too.

[Kankaku]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย DrunkenOrca:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kankaku:

It seems like it's just mainly for model swaps and retextures.

Yep, for other stuff i guess best option is to extract all assets and scripts, learn and extend. Ccut scenes and missions are scripts too.

At that point we might as well just make a different game lol.

[DrunkenOrca]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kankaku:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย DrunkenOrca:

Yep, for other stuff i guess best option is to extract all assets and scripts, learn and extend. Ccut scenes and missions are scripts too.

At that point we might as well just make a different game lol.

Well, its usual way when devs does not provide sdk.
But for example modding ARK is sometimes are muuuuuch more complicated, even in count they provide full SDK.

♥♥♥♥ part of modding X4 is the ugly, legacy, full of stupidity xml's. Why... why not LUA ... eeehh and no editor (devs have one but not sharing it because they are greedy =D)))

[Kankaku]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย DrunkenOrca:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kankaku:

At that point we might as well just make a different game lol.

Well, its usual way when devs does not provide sdk.
But for example modding ARK is sometimes are muuuuuch more complicated, even in count they provide full SDK.

♥♥♥♥ part of modding X4 is the ugly, legacy, full of stupidity xml's. Why... why not LUA ... eeehh and no editor (devs have one but not sharing it because they are greedy =D)))

Modding for stories should be drop down menus and nodes. Not XML or LUA anyway. That way you know people actually want to do it. Sure I can code in C++ or C# which I'd prefer any day. But like I said might as well make my own game at that point. I don't want to use garbage markup languages to make mods. It's way too limited.

Somehow Egosoft figured out a way to make something limited extremely convoluted so props to them for that I guess lol.

[flywlyx]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kankaku:

I phrased it that way in case anyone that wasn't familiar wanted to take part in the conversation. In my defense there is a "toolset" that's provided that some might consider an SDK but I'd say you're right in saying it's not.

I'd prefer an actual SDK with a robust easy to use toolset. Imagine if they limited the game to 50 ships in a fleet and focused the dev time on making these tools and a really clean and easily navigable UI. Game would be peak and the performance would be great. We all would be able to make cool story content for eachother.

I don't know probably a pipe dream.

They don’t even have a proper API with adequate documentation. Honestly, from my perspective, expecting an SDK is a stretch—perhaps it’s more reasonable to start by asking for a functional API. While the forums and Discord can offer some assistance when you have questions, you should be prepared for the help to be quite limited.