Multiplayer-Mode

[KevinHobbs]

Multiplayer mode of the mod is compatible so that you can play together or against each other would be mega nice my cousin and I always play together in the DC and see what the other is doing especially the fights would be even more realistic if you can play against another player or have fired and conquer the galaxy together

[Pathogenic]

The problem with multiplayer in the X4 universe, as I understand it, is the vast amount of data that would need to be updated between computers. X4 simulates and tracks all the ships and stations, regardless of whether you in the same system or not. That might present technical problems. Not sure if those problems are insurmountable though. I do agree that if it could be done, coop between a small number of friends, while keeping more or less the same balance that exists in the game currently, would be cool. I would be opposed to an MMO type of multiplayer.

Another multiplayer option I would like to see would be skirmish mode between fleets in a single system. In this mode, you could set up a skirmish in a system that is not part of the main X4 galaxy. That way, there would be no need for the vast amounts of data transfer, you would just need to worry about data for the single system. It would be fun to set up battles between two or more players with their fleets. Maybe the fleets used could actually come from each player's single player game, sent to the battle arena via Ventures modules.

[Gwizzz]

The amount of data being shared is not much different than other games like Elite Dangerous, No Mans Sky, and Star Citizen. Multiplayer could be an option but most likely won't be pursued as Egosoft already has enough money. They don't need the extra millions co-op X4 would bring in. Nah.

[Khaziir Everflight]

Not every game needs multiplayer. Same as with kenshi, this game does NOT need multiplayer. if you want multiplayer, play eve online or elite dangerous or (if it ever goes into a state that can be called a game) SC.

[Carlsberg]

Originally posted by Gwizzz:

The amount of data being shared is not much different than other games like Elite Dangerous, No Mans Sky, and Star Citizen. Multiplayer could be an option but most likely won't be pursued as Egosoft already has enough money. They don't need the extra millions co-op X4 would bring in. Nah.

Not to mention the problems that those games are plagued with that X4 doesn't have.

Edit; I was a kickstarter in ED, and SC and have played numerous others and experienced them go dismally down the pay to win route to the point they became nothing more than pvp games. If that's your taste then there are a great many games that provide that style of play, this isn't one of them and that is its appeal. (to me at least).

[Doom]

Originally posted by KevinHobbs:

Multiplayer mode of the mod is compatible so that you can play together or against each other would be mega nice my cousin and I always play together in the DC and see what the other is doing especially the fights would be even more realistic if you can play against another player or have fired and conquer the galaxy together

Not a thing, can't be made with a mod and extremely difficult to do with engine access.

Originally posted by Gwizzz:

The amount of data being shared is not much different than other games like Elite Dangerous, No Mans Sky, and Star Citizen. Multiplayer could be an option but most likely won't be pursued as Egosoft already has enough money. They don't need the extra millions co-op X4 would bring in. Nah.

The amount of data is about hundred times bigger than in NMS or Elite. The world in those games exist only in a small bubble around the player. In X4 the simulation continues even when player can't see it. So the game state is going to be much bigger. It is bigger than starcraft which is supposed to have 1700 unit limit on map.

[DrunkenOrca]

Originally posted by Doom:

Originally posted by KevinHobbs:

Multiplayer mode of the mod is compatible so that you can play together or against each other would be mega nice my cousin and I always play together in the DC and see what the other is doing especially the fights would be even more realistic if you can play against another player or have fired and conquer the galaxy together

Not a thing, can't be made with a mod and extremely difficult to do with engine access.

Originally posted by Gwizzz:

The amount of data being shared is not much different than other games like Elite Dangerous, No Mans Sky, and Star Citizen. Multiplayer could be an option but most likely won't be pursued as Egosoft already has enough money. They don't need the extra millions co-op X4 would bring in. Nah.

The amount of data is about hundred times bigger than in NMS or Elite. The world in those games exist only in a small bubble around the player. In X4 the simulation continues even when player can't see it. So the game state is going to be much bigger. It is bigger than starcraft which is supposed to have 1700 unit limit on map.

Not all data passed every frame, movement and other tasks "in time" are actually transistinon between two frames or frame and predicted behavior marker + correction frames over time. No, there really is no problem with data amount.

1. Engine is simply not designed for multiplayer (there tons of mechanics needed to be implemented in core-lever and design-level of engine). If current engine does not have multiplayer support in design it will be easier to throw it to trash and write a new engine and new game.
2. Making a client just control ship or even a fleets is not a big deal. Make fully featured multiplayer - is a hard task.
3. AI consumes a lot of resources in SP, so for MP it wold be more. So it would be very expensive to run public servers.

[Doom]

Originally posted by DrunkenOrca:

<snip>

The important part in your response is "engine is simply not designed for multiplayer". That's pretty much the only part that matters.

Throwing current engine into trash would be a suicide for egosoft. This game is more complex than it looks at a glance, and has a ton of modifications that keeps it alive and functional. Unless you can throw 30 million Euro or so at egosoft out of your own pocket, not much point in talking about it. Elite, back in the day, only managed to gather 1.5 million GBP. And X4 at this point of time likely cost more to develop than that amount.

Obviously if you believe this is simple you're free to develop your own multiplayer-capable competitor to X4.

[DrunkenOrca]

Originally posted by Doom:

Originally posted by DrunkenOrca:

<snip>

The important part in your response is "engine is simply not designed for multiplayer". That's pretty much the only part that matters.

Throwing current engine into trash would be a suicide for egosoft. This game is more complex than it looks at a glance, and has a ton of modifications that keeps it alive and functional. Unless you can throw 30 million Euro or so at egosoft out of your own pocket, not much point in talking about it. Elite, back in the day, only managed to gather 1.5 million GBP. And X4 at this point of time likely cost more to develop than that amount.

Obviously if you believe this is simple you're free to develop your own multiplayer-capable competitor to X4.

Mb you can point where i say "its simple" to develop "x4 competitor with MP"?
Mb where i say that creating engine is easy?

If you dont have anyone to chat with - buy a cat.

[Galvanized Dreamer]

Originally posted by AuDHD Khaziir Everflight:

Not every game needs multiplayer. Same as with kenshi, this game does NOT need multiplayer. if you want multiplayer, play eve online or elite dangerous or (if it ever goes into a state that can be called a game) SC.

KSP has multiple multiplayer mods, and I am pretty sure those had to invent new ways of doing netcode due to the nature of the game. As someone who's played with it, I found it quite fun, and am looking towards how KSA netcode is going to work.
While a game may not need multiplayer, the vast majority of games benefit from it. Kenshi would work just fine in Multiplayer, either Co-Op or otherwise, and wouldn't be unprecedented, since it is just a CRPG with extra steps (AKA: Every pre-WoW MMO).
Given the open-world nature of the game, I would see no reason why X4 would not benefit from it. Having a server in the same way as a private Minecraft survival server is something that I would like to see, regardless of the jank.
You also can't really compared X4 to ED or EVE. Yeah, you fly in space. That's where the similarities end, as those are both MMOs with MMO game design (and in EVE's case, MMO monetization). There is a difference between wanting to play co-op version of a single player game, VS teaming up in an MMO. Would you say that it is reasonable to compare Binding of Isaac to Realm of the Mad God? I would not.

Also, Doom: Potential fix for game state is have NPC AI reliant on the server, and have clients just have a bubble of loaded space around them. Not a perfect solution, as it does not account for system-wide stuff, but it's a start. Perhaps just have AI updates on a tickrate of like 1 outside said bubble? That's a variant of EVE's gimmick, and it's worked for them.
And Orca: As for more computational resources to do AI in MP, i don't really see why. You're running the same number of ships, actors, and everything else. MP itself would be expensive, but the amount of processing for AI specifically has not really increased. But that may just be my limited understanding.

[DrunkenOrca]

Originally posted by Galvanized Dreamer:

And Orca: As for more computational resources to do AI in MP, i don't really see why. You're running the same number of ships, actors, and everything else. MP itself would be expensive, but the amount of processing for AI specifically has not really increased. But that may just be my limited understanding.

Due to OOS/IS calculation models. In the case of a server, all sectors with players must be calculated in detail; for a server, the OOS data processing model will only be possible for sectors where there are no players. In case this calculation model is preserved in mp of course. And hybrid model like one in GTA V looks too wrong for X, plus, again, host must be capable to calculate (sectors * players)+OOS sectors+global logic and time for mp routines in real time

In all other cases, right - client receviing only data related with sector he resides (his bubble)) and even more, it may be not a whole sector, but just some clipping area related to client position, all other data is so small so it does not count (all other sectors, events and so on)

[Galvanized Dreamer]

Originally posted by DrunkenOrca:

Originally posted by Galvanized Dreamer:

And Orca: As for more computational resources to do AI in MP, i don't really see why. You're running the same number of ships, actors, and everything else. MP itself would be expensive, but the amount of processing for AI specifically has not really increased. But that may just be my limited understanding.

Due to OOS/IS calculation models. In the case of a server, all sectors with players must be calculated in detail; for a server, the OOS data processing model will only be possible for sectors where there are no players. In case this calculation model is preserved in mp of course. And hybrid model like one in GTA V looks too wrong for X, plus, again, host must be capable to calculate (sectors * players)+OOS sectors+global logic and time for mp routines in real time

In all other cases, right - client receviing only data related with sector he resides (his bubble)) and even more, it may be not a whole sector, but just some clipping area related to client position, all other data is so small so it does not count (all other sectors, events and so on)

Now question, is Out of scope/in scope in relation to X specifically, or multiplayer as a whole? Reason I say what I said is that I am reasonably sure one of the problems brought up in this thread is that all elements within the game world are being calculated to some capacity. I could be wrong in this, as I have not done the research to see how X in singleplayer handles the simulation at a distance.
However, in the hypothetical that I am correct, you aren't processing significantly more when it comes to gamestate just because you are in Multiplayer. And if it is, it is somewhat already dealt with, as that sort of multi-perspective bubble is already presently accounted for during normal play with the likes of multiple player owned ships and satellites. While it may increase strain on computation, it is already being processed relatively efficiently. That is, hypothetically.

[lllaxmatist]

There is only one realistic way, to make multiplayer in x4.

What i define by realistic:
1) can be implemented on CURRENT game architecture. (so no major code rewrite needed)
As refference, you can look at Riftbreaker multiplayer rework, that took several years already.

2) can be done, and with mostly community, and not egosoft.
Yes, people can vonvert SP games to MP, and community can done work,(Subnautica coop mod is hell of a work). But Sn method will not work for x4, cause there is almost no way to sync galaxy between clients.

The only fully successful example of adding multiplayer in single player game, that i know of) is Starsector, in form of AI tournaments.

Basically, players send their fleet composition (with custom builds ofc, but restrictions), and fleets fight each other. Without player imput.
A big streamer (or egosoft) can run this on their pc realtime and provide community with nice entertainment.

Technically if we can mod a custom mission in timelines and feed it a fleet info from a file, that is all we need.

[DrunkenOrca]

Originally posted by lllaxmatist:

There is only one realistic way, to make multiplayer in x4.

What i define by realistic:
1) can be implemented on CURRENT game architecture. (so no major code rewrite needed)

No. Only devs knows exactly, but all in the game and its configs/xmls/commands says - NO MULTIPLAYER HERE =)

Originally posted by lllaxmatist:

There is only one realistic way, to make
2) can be done, and with mostly community, and not egosoft.
Yes, people can vonvert SP games to MP, and community can done work,(Subnautica coop mod is hell of a work). But Sn method will not work for x4, cause there is almost no way to sync galaxy between clients.

But ... bro... is that a second way? ;-)
Depends on what to mean under MP and how open/discoverable/extendible/initially supporting engine is. Its not UE or Unity that initially supports MP and have enitity abstractions ready for mp (and even in that case its almost impossible to make quality solution), its a totally custom engine with totally closed source.

Id better say that Egosoft really needs to make AI part open source, as its still terrible after years.... but anyway

Originally posted by lllaxmatist:

There is only one realistic way, to make
Technically if we can mod a custom mission in timelines and feed it a fleet info from a file, that is all we need.

Then we get mission with fleet. Not mp.

[lllaxmatist]

Originally posted by DrunkenOrca:

Originally posted by lllaxmatist:

There is only one realistic way, to make multiplayer in x4.

What i define by realistic:
1) can be implemented on CURRENT game architecture. (so no major code rewrite needed)

No. Only devs knows exactly, but all in the game and its configs/xmls/commands says - NO MULTIPLAYER HERE =)

Originally posted by lllaxmatist:

There is only one realistic way, to make
2) can be done, and with mostly community, and not egosoft.
Yes, people can vonvert SP games to MP, and community can done work,(Subnautica coop mod is hell of a work). But Sn method will not work for x4, cause there is almost no way to sync galaxy between clients.

But ... bro... is that a second way? ;-)
Depends on what to mean under MP and how open/discoverable/extendible/initially supporting engine is. Its not UE or Unity that initially supports MP and have enitity abstractions ready for mp (and even in that case its almost impossible to make quality solution), its a totally custom engine with totally closed source.

Id better say that Egosoft really needs to make AI part open source, as its still terrible after years.... but anyway

Originally posted by lllaxmatist:

There is only one realistic way, to make
Technically if we can mod a custom mission in timelines and feed it a fleet info from a file, that is all we need.

Then we get mission with fleet. Not mp.

Did you read fully? I do agree that making x4 MP is 99.9 impossible right now.

I am proposing ai tournament format, where people may pompete with each other with purely SP game.

Just search on Yt "Starsector multiplayer tournament" You ll get what i mean.

[Azunai]

Considering how long it takes to save the game, it's quite unlikely that a multiplayer mode would be technically feasible. A big chunk of that data would have to be synced between the server and clients in real time.