Confused as to how owning a wharf is even relevant in X4

[Oddible]

Honestly by the time I have enough money for a wharf and enough blueprints to make it profitable, I own most of the map and it is just tedious mop up of remaining enemy sectors, the Xenon are all but destroyed. What is the playstyle that affords someone a wharf? Do you just let the Xenon destroy everything and factions conquer each other while you turtle up? Because if you're stopping the Xenon you then definitely have a fleet powerful enough to run the map - there just isn't enough time to sit and wait for hundreds of millions of credits to pile up. Do you use SETA? I don't get it.

[Mutineer]

Well, you can ether spend your money on fleet and go wipe thinks out or you can invest into wharf and not use it to make money. Because by that time money becoming less meaningful. You use to produce ships for yourself and amount of ships you build basically limited by your production. You actually do not need that much money to build wharf and to buy blueprints for ships and equipment you use.
After you do that, ships are free.
And majority of ships I use in my fleet are S and M class.

[Oddible]

My challenge is that let's say you spend 200 million on a wharf and blueprints (that's the low end given the blueprints you'd need). That's like 10-15 Odysseus. You could literally own the entire universe with 10 Odys lol.

[Gregorovitch]

Seems to me that mostly what you are doing with shipyards, assuming they are well supplied by your own manufacturing supply chains, is providing the factions with consistent access to replacement ships in addition to what they can normally build themselves. By choosing to sell some factions ships and not others you are in a position to significantly alter the balance of power and therefore the course of conflicts to create a political outcome in the galaxy you want to see.

[Sieda]

Originally posted by Oddible:

My challenge is that let's say you spend 200 million on a wharf and blueprints (that's the low end given the blueprints you'd need). That's like 10-15 Odysseus. You could literally own the entire universe with 10 Odys lol.

Call me a skeptic here but I see HOP/PAR roll with 5 or 6 (or more, I don't really formally count) in a single fleet alone I think you'd have to rely on a lot of micro-management and exploitative tricks to even try and wipe the gate network with 10 Odys, let alone "own" it. Actually owning and securing sectors implies defending them over time from factions rebuilding and raiding you which inevitably means attrition somewhere especially among your fighters (unless I guess if you build gamey gate defense fortresses everywhere which is going to cost millions and billions anyway). If your stance towards other factions is open war, then your ability to just buy ships for credits becomes strained.If you pirate them? Repairs and modifications cost money at non-player owned stations which might be saved over time using your own.

Player owned Wharves and Shipyards are expensive and irrelevant to probably 85% of the game sure, and I guess that means that players who don't aspire to project power in a way that NPC factions do will have little use for them. But if you want to build and defend a sovereign self-reliant Empire beyond just wiping everything off the map, they're an expensive late game tool to help shape the gate network they way you want to see it.

Oh and to address a question OP asked with my experience with my own game - Yeah, maybe cut back on investment into the Xenon eradication to just doing what you can to assist the factions you like with your few ships. If other factions do lose territory, it's just free real estate for you in the future.

[Oddible]

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

Seems to me that mostly what you are doing with shipyards, assuming they are well supplied by your own manufacturing supply chains, is providing the factions with consistent access to replacement ships in addition to what they can normally build themselves. By choosing to sell some factions ships and not others you are in a position to significantly alter the balance of power and therefore the course of conflicts to create a political outcome in the galaxy you want to see.

I don't own either a wharf or a shipyard in my current game and don't see that the investment is even achievable unless I allow the AI to run amok in the universe. If I ignore the faction fighting and ignore the Xenon I can amass enough wealth to build a wharf or shipyard with blueprints, however if I even try the tiniest amount to stall the Xenon, I end up with a number of destroyers in a fleet that renders all AI fleet's irrelevant and I just roflstomp everything in the universe before I even get a wharf or shipyard. So are people ignoring the encroaching of the Xenon to afford to build the wharf and shipyard? They must be!

[hurepoix]

Originally posted by Oddible:

Confused as to how owning a wharf is even relevant in X4

How relevant are games like sims city or banished ?

Fact is X4 have several side ; some like to fight on a fighter seat, others makes missions, and for those who like to build stations, warf is the ultimate cash provider.

Myself build warf usually around hours 40, so I build my own destroyers. At that time, faction warf are usually at pain to deliver large ships in mass, because of hull part shortage... or may be I am partly responsible for this shortage.
Shipyard also allow me to build personalized ship, but I admit it is more a personal perfectionism than a real rational need.

Anyway, you re right on one point, a well organised player can make short work of xenons in a few days.

10 destroyers is perhaps a bit optimist however for the job. At least you will not break a genocide speed record with so few destroyers.

Originally posted by Sieda:

which inevitably means attrition somewhere especially among your fighters

Your ... what ? fighters ? you build or buy such things ?

On my side core fleet is made of odyseus. Quick intervention, anti khaak ak and patrol are a job for cheap teladi gun boat or later by vanguard gorgon. Modification are ignored it is a waste of time. Defense station and defense module on station = 0 it is waste of money and time.

Otherwise I think xenons can be enterely wiped out during day 4, may be 3. I never tried a genocide race on xenons. the only comparison I Have is a game where I played on split patriach side, that end d5h19 with argon antigone xenon and teladi s ministry (unwilling collateral victim) destruction.

[Oddible]

Originally posted by hurepoix:

Originally posted by Oddible:

Confused as to how owning a wharf is even relevant in X4

How relevant are games like sims city or banished ?

Fact is X4 have several side ; some like to fight on a fighter seat, others makes missions, and for those who like to build stations, warf is the ultimate cash provider.

Myself build warf usually around hours 40, so I build my own destroyers. At that time, faction warf are usually at pain to deliver large ships in mass, because of hull part shortage... or may be I am partly responsible for this shortage.
Shipyard also allow me to build personalized ship, but I admit it is more a personal perfectionism than a real rational need.

Anyway, you re right on one point, a well organised player can make short work of xenons in a few days.

10 destroyers is perhaps a bit optimist however for the job. At least you will not break a genocide speed record with so few destroyers.

Originally posted by Sieda:

which inevitably means attrition somewhere especially among your fighters

Your ... what ? fighters ? you build or buy such things ?

On my side core fleet is made of odyseus. Quick intervention, anti khaak ak and patrol are a job for cheap teladi gun boat or later by vanguard gorgon. Modification are ignored it is a waste of time. Defense station and defense module on station = 0 it is waste of money and time.

Otherwise I think xenons can be enterely wiped out during day 4, may be 3. I never tried a genocide race on xenons. the only comparison I Have is a game where I played on split patriach side, that end d5h19 with argon antigone xenon and teladi s ministry (unwilling collateral victim) destruction.

When you read the title but don't read the post.

[hurepoix]

I did, but may be you didnt read the answer.

[Lapo]

I fail to see what they have to do with each other. A wharf and conquering stuff, I mean.

A wharf is a money making station. 15 destroyers may be enough to "conquer anything" but won't make you money. What do you need money for if you can afford a wharf? Well, the Paranid and Split story lines need several hundred million credits each to finish them (plus the rep grind to access the specific equipment each ship must have). You COULD try to capture them without buying but the odds of getting exactly the equipment they are asking for makes it a long and boring grind when you could just throw money (and lots of hull parts shipments) at the problem and finish it.

As for what type of playstyle affords someone a wharf... I usually setup nividium miners at the start of the game for each of the 6 trade stations that buy NV and have deposits within the sector. By the 36 hour mark the money they make lets me afford the wharf and the basic blueprints needed to start operations. Profits snowball after that, and all this without needing my attention besides the initial setup so that time can be used to do anything you want. Like capturing all those destroyers. Or setting up Claytronics and Hull Part stations to make sure the economy doesn't crash. Or build up your HQ to see how many modules you need to bring FPS to single digits. Or anything else that floats your spaceship.

A wharf is freedom. A wharf is love...

[Oddible]

Originally posted by Lapo:

I fail to see what they have to do with each other. A wharf and conquering stuff, I mean.

A wharf is a money making station. 15 destroyers may be enough to "conquer anything" but won't make you money. What do you need money for if you can afford a wharf? Well, the Paranid and Split story lines need several hundred million credits each to finish them (plus the rep grind to access the specific equipment each ship must have). You COULD try to capture them without buying but the odds of getting exactly the equipment they are asking for makes it a long and boring grind when you could just throw money (and lots of hull parts shipments) at the problem and finish it.

As for what type of playstyle affords someone a wharf... I usually setup nividium miners at the start of the game for each of the 6 trade stations that buy NV and have deposits within the sector. By the 36 hour mark the money they make lets me afford the wharf and the basic blueprints needed to start operations. Profits snowball after that, and all this without needing my attention besides the initial setup so that time can be used to do anything you want. Like capturing all those destroyers. Or setting up Claytronics and Hull Part stations to make sure the economy doesn't crash. Or build up your HQ to see how many modules you need to bring FPS to single digits. Or anything else that floats your spaceship.

A wharf is freedom. A wharf is love...

Interesting, the two parts of your answer are almost opposites. I don't build a wharf but I DO build factories, miners, traders, just that whenever I have 12 mil I buy a destroyer, before I'd even have close to enough money for a wharf I have a force that can dominate the galaxy without having to wait around twiddling my thumbs waiting for my Nvidium miners to make enough for a wharf. So do you sit around and watch TV for 36 hours?

[felmari]

well i made infrastructure first(started with refineries) in close proximity but a few sectors which was making a little money but i was still struggling to get enough for s/m once i got that it still took a while to get enough for large though quicker. this is while im trying to get plans for everything and reputation with everyone(i know you can hack some of them too). after i get all that money will be quite meaningless but i will be able to make ships with awesome loadouts right out of the shipyard. depends how you play but by that time you probably should by at end game where you can pretty much be considered a independent war capable faction all your own.

[hurepoix]

I have a question ; How many time did it take you to conquiere the world with 10 odyseus ?
I my opinion you never tried it, if you did you would talk like you do.
Now try to conquiere the world with 10 odyseus and then, come back to tell us how it was and how long it took you.

I dont say it is not possible. I just think it is a long and boring task. Dont take it personally but it is also pig s work. You will need all your destroyer at once to achieve your goal, and it will let several way unsecure behind you.

Im summary and to repeat what I said earlier, have your own warf allow to have adequate number of destroyer to reach a conquest goal in optimal condition. Factions are unreliable to sell you large ships in mass to achieve a conquest task quickly and efficiently.

At the end in a global conquest spirit between a player who buy its ships and a player who build a warf then produce its own ship, the warf owner will achieve the conquest before the player who buy its ships.

This is for X4 unmodded, which is a kind of candy. For harder game, like with ROR for exemple, dont even try your method or will be soon dead meat.

[Oddible]

Originally posted by hurepoix:

I have a question ; How many time did it take you to conquiere the world with 10 odyseus ?
I my opinion you never tried it, if you did you would talk like you do.
Now try to conquiere the world with 10 odyseus and then, come back to tell us how it was and how long it took you.

I dont say it is not possible. I just think it is a long and boring task. Dont take it personally but it is also pig s work. You will need all your destroyer at once to achieve your goal, and it will let several way unsecure behind you.

Im summary and to repeat what I said earlier, have your own warf allow to have adequate number of destroyer to reach a conquest goal in optimal condition. Factions are unreliable to sell you large ships in mass to achieve a conquest task quickly and efficiently.

At the end in a global conquest spirit between a player who buy its ships and a player who build a warf then produce its own ship, the warf owner will achieve the conquest before the player who buy its ships.

This is for X4 unmodded, which is a kind of candy. For harder game, like with ROR for exemple, dont even try your method or will be soon dead meat.

Current game is 5 days in. Split start. I think I only built 6 Odysseus and 1 Rattlesnake. However I have 19 destroyers at this point. Between my war with the Argon and my war with the CAB I've collected a few more Rattlers and Behemoths. I also realized that you can capture friendly sectors by killing their admin centers without them even attacking you - pretty silly actually.

The conclusion I'm coming to is that I play a bit more micro game than folks who are building a wharf. I pretty handily can defeat a Xenon fleet of two Ks and an I in a solo Ody. In my war with the CAB I encountered 4 Rattlesnakes a Raptor and 2 Monitors. I had 4 Rattlers and 4 Odys nearby. I pretty much solo'd all of them keeping my fleet at a distance and swapping ships as the one I was in got too beat up. Ended up capturing all of them except for 2 of the Ratts which I had to destroy to keep from dying. When I attack stations I fly in myself in an Ody and poke out all the more dangerous turrets, then let my destroyer fleet clean up afterward.

I might try a fully hands off game where I let me fleets do everything OOS for me next game - probably more essential to have a player owned wharf and shipyard if I'm taking more losses. I'm always fascinated by the different playstyles of the various players of X games!

I really wish we had a better ledger, I'd love to see my credits per hour now with 33 specialized factories. Every time I have extra cash I just put it into the economy rather than going for a self-sufficient economy. It might also be why my factions aren't pushovers to the Xenon - they pump out destroyers like crazy.

[hurepoix]

With renforts in large military ships it makes more sense. However I still think, that building a warf, you would achieve the same thing earlier.
You are currently at day 5 ? Xenons are over and all red sectors are now grey or conquest is still in progress ?

Otherwise ; the two options, with/without warf are dependant of reputation. Paranids are not the most easy because they are not interrested with nividium. Probably during the first 24 hours both option are locked. During the next 24 next hours the ship buyer will probably be ahead, but I dont think it s enough to beat the xenons at that time. after that, in my opinion, advantage is for the builder expansionally.

Anyway, it is not because I think it is not the most efficient way, it dont make an interresting game.

[Oddible]

I don't want to completely kill off the Xenon, I leave a wharf in a sector that I can farm for drops if needed.