Why is this common with Egosoft?

[Venerable_Sin]

Check out what I found in an "official" X4 wiki.
It reminds me of an underlying condescending tone that Timelines delivers to it's players.

CopyPaste: (unless you’ve been a complete idiot WRT setting up their station & assigned orders ofc)

Source:
Title of article: X4 3.1x NPC Skill/Experience training - a short overview
Last modified by Ketraar on 2023/08/15 17:05

2nd paragraph in article: The other way for NPCs to gain experience is for you to use them to complete tasks assigned to them: with each successful task completed, the NPC gains some experience (XP). With this mechanic in mind, it’s easy to see why (eg) your station managers are gaining management skills like crazy (unless you’ve been a complete idiot WRT setting up their station & assigned orders ofc); likewise, any ship with a crew that’s assigned to engineering & often suffers damage (even minimal) will level that crew’s engineering skill very quickly (eg miners). Morale gives an incremental boost to all skills & increases passively over the time that employee is employed*; marines gain their experience from successful boarding ops* ofc. See https://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=4945274#p4945274 for a quick summary

[Xautos]

can't use the first link because of the "%20" which usually indicates a special character, the current link will be invalid.

The quoted text from Ketraar in the wiki you posted seems okay to me. Ketaar is a very helpful individual when you need assistance. That in the brackets is just a way of saying that so long as you set up everything okay in the settings your station manager will gain their ideal amounts of experience. If you don't get the amount of experience you should from your station manager, then you haven't got the settings right somewhere and need to double check.

[Donauwelle]

Guess the part with the idiot was a attempt of hidden edgyness by ketraar.
He does this things, guess he thinks its edgy/funny...
Wouldnt be surprised if he edited this part because of someone really annoying him on Forums...
Who was technically right (thus the edit) but was just anoying ketraar (thus the idiot).
Generally the best way to get things done/fixed, annoy them till they bother,
they try to edge on you, grudge and moan, but you and them know its for their better....


Their Texting and Presentation (News, Wiki, Ingame-descriptions, Forum etc) is made by the same ppl who make the Destroyer AI and the Storywriting.
They dont have dedicated "Marketing" or "Communication" staff (eccept eMy our beloved steammod)


It was way worse 1-1.5 years ago.
Back then they had open acess (regular PW lock without any antispam) to parts of their backend (project-management software) via their German WIki...
Noone cared till i made a over-the-top-slanderpost here on steam,
was fixed just 1 week later....
Got the usuall edgy Dev reaction ofc, but as usuall if they know your right... they fixed stuff

Egos vids got better aswell btw....
Again 1-1.5 years ago Bernd (CEO) would film himself with his smartphone in front of a storage-room, shaking like a earthquake, filming from below (his nosehair is crazy) or in other words, 10/10 How-NOT-to-make-content, last ones been better, nearly good in comparison.

Soooo I guess someone who joined Egosoft in the last 1year-ish used a smartphone and Modern-medias, wich is more then you could say from the old ego staff.

[Venerable_Sin]

Originally posted by Xautos:

can't use the first link because of the "%20" which usually indicates a special character, the current link will be invalid.

The quoted text from Ketraar in the wiki you posted seems okay to me. Ketaar is a very helpful individual when you need assistance. That in the brackets is just a way of saying that so long as you set up everything okay in the settings your station manager will gain their ideal amounts of experience. If you don't get the amount of experience you should from your station manager, then you haven't got the settings right somewhere and need to double check.

I have no doubt the individual may be helpful, even if flawed in the attempt. (They made the article so I'm sure they are helpful)
The message I'm trying to convey is this: The personal opinion is of no use to the audience, other than possibly amusing someone at another's expense. Furthermore, it's detrimental to someone who is trying to learn and might have their stuff set up wrong. Even furthermore, it's detrimental to someone trying to take the information seriously and finding out it's a waste of their time sorting through this wiki If I'm going to keep finding little nuggets like this.

[Venerable_Sin]

I want facts, not opinions. That's all I'm trying to say. I'm not interested in getting to know the author, or any of that. I'm interested in the information the person has to offer. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Azunai]

Is the author of that text even an employee of egosoft? I think i saw him on steam a few times and he had an orange username, not green. I think green is developer accounts, but i don't know what orange means.

[Venerable_Sin]

Originally posted by Azunai:

Is the author of that text even an employee of egosoft? I think i saw him on steam a few times and he had an orange username, not green. I think green is developer accounts, but i don't know what orange means.

Regardless, it is an "official" X4 wiki. The author has edit permissions from an administrator associated with Egosoft. So, either way paid or unpaid, the association exists.

If I was the CEO or an employee and saw that, I would be concerned about potential clients leaving or not purchasing the product over their own personal feelings.

So... being rude doesn't serve the paycheck very well, in most professions anyway.

[trooperrob]

I think you are overreacting, he was trying to make the post have a friendly note, and perhaps indicate there might be circumstances where you set a station up in a strange way and don't get the benefit.
It is a wiki. It is for community help.
Feel free to rewrite all articles in a tone you find correct, and we can pick flaws in it.

It wasn't offensive, it was a light hearted comment.
If you don't like stuff provided for free, ask them for a refund.

If of course you find lots of other people offended by this, then crack on.

From your other posts you seem to have other issues you would rather Egosoft staff tackle as a higher priority, I do.


Agreed, if a paid member of staff under me wrote that in a manual I would ask them to modify it.

This post is not intended to be taken as aggressive.

[Venerable_Sin]

Originally posted by trooperrob:

I think you are overreacting, he was trying to make the post have a friendly note, and perhaps indicate there might be circumstances where you set a station up in a strange way and don't get the benefit.
It is a wiki. It is for community help.
Feel free to rewrite all articles in a tone you find correct, and we can pick flaws in it.

It wasn't offensive, it was a light hearted comment.
If you don't like stuff provided for free, ask them for a refund.

If of course you find lots of other people offended by this, then crack on.

From your other posts you seem to have other issues you would rather Egosoft staff tackle as a higher priority, I do.


Agreed, if a paid member of staff under me wrote that in a manual I would ask them to modify it.

This post is not intended to be taken as aggressive.

Not to take anything away from your message tropperrob, but found an interesting quote that may apply here. “We cannot direct the wind, but we can adjust the sails.”
Thank you for your thoughts. It is what it is. :)

I'm having to teach myself how to read programming in order to get information about this game. So. . . Maybe after I learn the language and get facts instead of opinions I'll be better prepared to ignore stuff that is only detrimental to those who won't voice it. I'll also have the skills necessary to give accurate information to people by correcting the wiki. But then again a squirrel might distract me and I might forget about the whole thing too. After all, I'm looking to eat the cake, not bake it.

[Ketraar]

You are clearly reaching, which we both know is not a surprise. The fact that I'm a wiki admin and made edits to most of the structure of teh wiki when it was ported from confluence to XWiki, will mean many pages will have my name as last edit. It will surprise you that very little content is made by me as the Wiki was and still is mostly handled by community people.

I'm glad it helped you find a purpose in life and brighten your day. Obviously I would very seldom call anyone an idiot, much less in a guide. Not for lack of wanting, some cases would clearly warrant it. One case comes to mind...

MFG

Ketraar

[Venerable_Sin]

Originally posted by Ketraar:

You are clearly reaching, which we both know is not a surprise. The fact that I'm a wiki admin and made edits to most of the structure of teh wiki when it was ported from confluence to XWiki, wil mean many pages will have my name as last edit. It will surprise you that very little contact is made by me as the Wiki was and stil is mostly handled by community people.

I'm glad it helped you find a purpose in life and helped brighten your day. Obviously I would very seldom call anyone an idiot, much less a guide. Not for lack of wanting, some cases would clearly warrant it. One case comes to mind...

MFG

Ketraar

Ketraar, how would you know what I think is a surprise or not? The fact that you say Helped find a purpose in life and helped brighten your day is the type of thing this post is trying to address. Thank you for driving the point home for the record. And thank you for correcting the record for anything that may be inaccurate, as I understand how embarrassing this may be or look for you.

[Cellar_Cat]

I really don't understand the comparison you are drawing here. Someone wrote on a wiki about an unspecified 'idiot' managing their station, and you feel this sentiment is conveyed to you somehow in Timelines...?

[Venerable_Sin]

Originally posted by Cellar_Cat:

I really don't understand the comparison you are drawing here. Someone wrote on a wiki about an unspecified 'idiot' managing their station, and you feel this sentiment is conveyed to you somehow in Timelines...?

No, it's the condescending stuff that was acceptable to release for SOME of the Timelines dialogue. Timelines in itself, other than HAVING to do missions that I didn't want to do, was a mostly O.K. experience and I see great value in it for the devs. Unfortunately, It's a multi-use dev tool before an entertainment tool. They really hit too many stones with it. A person who is not familiar with the X4 lore can get the wrong impression very easily. Or in other words it's easy for a dev to insult the customer without the customer knowing they are being insulted. So. . . Only room for improvement. Nothing comes from arguing, just voicing one man's perspective.

Anyways, I'm one guy voicing an opinion to hopefully improve upon those who would take the criticism. Who knows how many people have said nothing but voiced their dissatisfaction in another way.

In other words. I'm trying to help, not fight anyone.

[trooperrob]

By Ketraars subtle exchange, I think the point have been made and accepted.
We don't know how much of a political decision Timelines was, and how much functionality was defined by available timelines (non intentional) and resource and engine constraints.
Making a point that has already been made and accepted is not edit helpfull here, and never insult people who do work for free if you don't want to do it yourself.


it is only acceptable when used to prevent fascists taking over your government.
swidt.

[zpc]

Just as a sidenote from a bystander - the last few years really have been something when people desperately try to draw lines where there are none. Of course it's human nature to detect patterns - but really in the last few years this was carried too far. While it was fun at first, this really isn't helpful to have a constructive climate.

Originally posted by trooperrob:

it is only acceptable when used to prevent fascists taking over your government.
swidt.

Investing energy there would ~really~ be helpful indeed.

[Venerable_Sin]

As a person who has been part of a small team that had to develop and bring to market our product, I understand the difficulties, but there's a thing called Continual improvement process/program which I'm attacking here. Nothing else, no-one else. It's up to the individual and the process to improve, which Egosoft does pretty well given enough time and constructive criticism.

It would be nice if the information provided by the wiki was factual, constructive, non egotistical, non challenging and encouraging to someone who has spent their time and focus in life in something other than programming/game development/forum management. Players of EVE online have created wonderful, factual documents that give you the information you're after, plus the "translation" that may be needed.

Case and point: https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_mechanics

As far as the politics are concerned. My training and weapons are ready if anyone ever tries to take them. I'm done with wars. They only serve to hurt those involved, for life and make the rich, richer.