Spreadsheets?

[nocforweb]

So I finally got this game to run on my machine (one of the last patches must've fixed it) and it seems like it will be really fun. It also seems like trade is a big component, which means finding the cheapest places to buy and best places to sell. Fair enough. And the satellites are a cute touch, I like needing to do that.

But it also seems like, given how many things we're buying and selling and how they keep changing, that we need a spreadsheet to let us easily compare where to make money. And given how many millions of menus this game seems to rabbit-hole under innocuous-seeming icons... feels like maybe there might be one? Is there one? If so.. where? If not.. is there another trick?

Thank you all!

[Pandorian]

Originally posted by nocforweb:

But it also seems like, given how many things we're buying and selling and how they keep changing, that we need a spreadsheet to let us easily compare where to make money. And given how many millions of menus this game seems to rabbit-hole under innocuous-seeming icons... feels like maybe there might be one? Is there one? If so.. where? If not.. is there another trick?

If you're running a station it can auto set prices depending on stock. Traders also work automatically and typically don't lose money unless you order manual trades. It sort of sounds like you want the average price of a ware, which is in the in game encyclopedia.

[conrado.lacerda]

Spreadsheets...

That's a way to suck out any enjoyment out of a game...

[Zloth]

You don't need spreadsheets. Or station AI, either. What you need is the trade overlay thing. Bring up the map and check in the upper right area, there should be a way to turn it on. You'll see a bunch of boxes with hexagons and ware names in them, like you see in this part of Egosoft's Wiki:
https://www.egosoft.com:8444/confluence/display/X4WIKI/Trading+And+Mining#TradingAndMining-GainingInfoAboutTradeOffers

By default, that will give you the best buys and sells in the area you see on your map. Zooming out will cover more stations, so you can find the best price you know about in the whole game by zooming all the way out.

If you are looking for specific wares (for instance, if you are gathering resources to build a station), there's a filter option that will limit the wares displayed to the ones you select.

Best of all, you don't have to zoom in to the station to do your buy and sell orders. You can do them on that little box! Select your ship, then right click on the ware in the box. You'll get the dialog box for buying/selling!

And, naturally, all this works just fine when the game is paused. (I swear, they should teach you how to use the pause key even before teaching you how to move. That key is crazy handy in this game.)

Of course, the trade filter thing is only as good as the information you feed it, which is what satellites are good at getting. If you're a lazy/rich person, you can just dump advanced satellites all over the map. If you're extremely lazy and rich, you can talk with the faction rep and sign up to get information for every station they have. Otherwise, plop down normal satellites yourself. Normal sats can reach read all stations within 30km. (I'm pretty sure that's a 3D sphere of 30km.)

[fNarkos]

Check youtube: Captain Collins, X4:Foundations; JK Ninja, X4

[nocforweb]

Originally posted by Pandorian:

If you're running a station it can auto set prices depending on stock. Traders also work automatically and typically don't lose money unless you order manual trades. It sort of sounds like you want the average price of a ware, which is in the in game encyclopedia.

Interesting.. I haven't gotten to the point where I can set up a station yet (still very early into it all) but that will be fun to learn about. Traders seem to (currently, not at level 3+) only trade in 1 sector at a time, and I am not seeing any profits available in a single-sector. Maybe that changes later? And not so much the average price, as that's pretty meaningless unless you find a place that sells under it and buys over it. End of the day that's all that really matters

Originally posted by Zloth:

You don't need spreadsheets. Or station AI, either. What you need is the trade overlay thing. Bring up the map and check in the upper right area, there should be a way to turn it on. You'll see a bunch of boxes with hexagons and ware names in them, like you see in this part of Egosoft's Wiki:
https://www.egosoft.com:8444/confluence/display/X4WIKI/Trading+And+Mining#TradingAndMining-GainingInfoAboutTradeOffers

By default, that will give you the best buys and sells in the area you see on your map. Zooming out will cover more stations, so you can find the best price you know about in the whole game by zooming all the way out.
..

Hmm.. I had looked at that but while it gives the best prices for that area, actually using it to find the best deals has been a total pain. With 42 possible things being traded, and only a few highlighted at a time, trying to mouse over and compare lowest cost vs highest sales while calculating which things will produce profit... My brain just isn't wired to track numbers like that. Its nice that it brings that info up but it isn't enough for me..

Originally posted by enderbeta:

The map has this covered. You can toggle on your filters for mining and trading. You can then type in the resource(s) you are looking for and it will highlight them. It's really handy, especially when you deploy resource probes and satellites to keep your data up to date.

yea, saw that filter but doesn't really help enough w/ comparing things, at least not for any manual trades. I mean it helps, in that 'this is where you find out prices' but it doesn't help with any kind of quick comparison as to which things will turn a profit and where. still have to try and keep track of all the numbers while looking all over the place which.. honestly writing spreadsheets is more fun for me then trying to do that, and not even being ironic.

Originally posted by fNarkos:

Check youtube: Captain Collins, X4:Foundations; JK Ninja, X4

Sweet! will check that out - was looking at a few streamers but maybe this will have better luck. Much thanks!

[nocforweb]

Originally posted by conrado.lacerda:

Spreadsheets...

That's a way to suck out any enjoyment out of a game...

Yea... totally agreed. *sigh* I made one anyway just to move forward while trying to find a solution, but don't know how well it will scale over time and a Ton of systems. Especially if I can't figure out how to hook it to automatically update based on game data. I'll be digging through the video suggestions to see if I find a better path forward. (Other then looking at the zoomed out map and trying to mentally math out 42 variables). And if that doesn't end up working for me, well, forget trade and pirate life for me, yarrr

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xgpyh3w50fbw5hi/x4_spreadsheet_pg1.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xiylld3vfdym24r/x4_spreadsheet_pg2.jpg

[nocforweb]

Oh! Was just clicking around and looks like I can set up a trade ship to 'repeat orders' on a particular ware, then set up multiple sources and destinations, along with max pay and min sale. Doesn't quite resolve the initial problem (the 'average' cost doesn't actually reflect the systems - they don't seem to conform to that value in any meaningful way), still gotta dig through.. but once I have a baseline idea of what's happening in an area (from a spreadsheet so far sadly) can then use the filter on the map to the most profitable ware.. and then add all its 'buy' and 'sale' locations in there. Just dedicate a trader to that ware and region (not sector since I'm not seeing any profitable trades from staying within the same hex). Trying this, will watch the vids shortly..

[conrado.lacerda]

Originally posted by nocforweb:

Oh! Was just clicking around and looks like I can set up a trade ship to 'repeat orders' on a particular ware, then set up multiple sources and destinations, along with max pay and min sale. Doesn't quite resolve the initial problem (the 'average' cost doesn't actually reflect the systems - they don't seem to conform to that value in any meaningful way), still gotta dig through.. but once I have a baseline idea of what's happening in an area (from a spreadsheet so far sadly) can then use the filter on the map to the most profitable ware.. and then add all its 'buy' and 'sale' locations in there. Just dedicate a trader to that ware and region (not sector since I'm not seeing any profitable trades from staying within the same hex). Trying this, will watch the vids shortly..

- "Average price" in this game means (max+min)/2, that is, the middle point in the price slider.
- Check also the autotrade behaviors. At first, with a low-level captain, you can only use the local version: 1 sector, 1 ware. But as your captain gains experience, the options open up to several sectors and several wares. With this type of behavior, you don't have to worry about the prices: the captain will automatically choose the cheapest place to buy and the most expensive to sell, provided that there are such places that allow a trade with some profit at the end.

[Zalzany]

Originally posted by conrado.lacerda:

Spreadsheets...

That's a way to suck out any enjoyment out of a game...

Depends on how your brain works, I have aspergers I love spreadheets they add fun to some games. But I was that guy who ran speadsheets in WoW to see wich peice of gear that could drop an upgrade or not for my dps :P Talking down to ideal pen %, crit etc.

[conrado.lacerda]

Originally posted by Zalzany:

Originally posted by conrado.lacerda:

Spreadsheets...

That's a way to suck out any enjoyment out of a game...

Depends on how your brain works, I have aspergers I love spreadheets they add fun to some games. But I was that guy who ran speadsheets in WoW to see wich peice of gear that could drop an upgrade or not for my dps :P Talking down to ideal pen %, crit etc.

Well, despite having written that, I also play X4 with a calculator at hand...

[reanor]

Gameplay is quite intuitive, do the tutorial first, it explain most of the basic gameplay mechanics.

[nocforweb]

Originally posted by reanor:

Gameplay is quite intuitive, do the tutorial first, it explain most of the basic gameplay mechanics.

I went through all of them and beside the basic of 'how to fly the ship' they were.. not good. There is one on flying (good enough), then a combat one (had to go through and reconfigure all the controls to make it playable). Finally there's a 'generic one' that shows you how to do mining (the 'Rugged Gamer' guide seemed better both at explaining it and at pointing out that you'll generally automate that out rather then doing it yourself), base building (doesn't teach anything, you just click into it and it says 'base building is happening' but doesn't have you do anything), and.. I think a transport thing? can't remember. It doesn't cover any of the 4X elements in X4 - fleets and fleet management, planning out mining, pilot skills and impacts, base-building, factions, boarding.. There's room for improvement in the tutorials.

As for 'intuitive', I would certainly not say any of it beyond 'flying' is intuitive so far. Everything I've done so far I've had to find youtube guides for. Even the actual missions have gaps where they say 'do something' but don't say anything on 'how'. (like 'add a dock to the base' - erm. how? had to YT to find out I had to look for the build menu, find a builder in another sector, etc. And had to watch it multiple times at slow speed to understand and replicate what was happening) For that matter even the big 'tutorial' mission (about building that early base) is secret - I didn't find it till a few dozens of hours in, when by accident I watched a youtube vid that mentioned 'secret missions' where you slowly scan stations till it triggers things. The game suggested I could scan for some extra credits, that seemed incredibly boring and low-payoff, so it didn't cross my mind to crawl over stations because that's what would move plot forward. And that mission has a bunch of points that just say 'now do this' but not 'how'.

Trading doesn't even get that amount of coverage and only really figured out what I was supposed to really be doing (setting behaviors, how to use the filtering somewhat) from the community discussions and YT.. and still think its lacking in figuring out initial trades (since the early sectors of x4 foundation are generally not good for trying to auto-trade within the same sector and - after a pretty extensive spreadsheet - only had 1-2 materials that could be traded for any kind of profit). I suspect toward the mid / late game maybe there's enough explored and satellites out and high pilot-skill traders that you can be more loosey-goosey with it and use the existing interface... but not in the first dozen hours. (Unless you already know how to play and have some tricks up your belt).

Sorry, not meaning to gripe on here, and the community (here and on youtube) has been mostly great at helping unblock me. And I think this game is growing toward 'fun' with community help. But I'll be honest, without the community this game is unplayable. I figured out Dwarf Fortress (early ascii version) with less difficulty and questions.

[Mal Function]

also spreadsheets are kinda redundant... youve no sooner looked through all the trade offers, copied them across to your spreadsheet... then a xenon attack fleet runs through and blows up half the miners and tanks the economy... its a dynamic universe

[MOK]

If you like spreadsheets, try Eve hehe. It can somehow make spreadsheets fun, if that's the way your brain's wired. And it's got the depth, breadth, and competitiveness to rationalize it. I never knew I loved spreadsheets until Eve taught me that I did.

But as for this game, I understand that first impression about needing to track the data better. What you'll find over time is that you won't really need such a tool in practice. But initially, the fact-finding process from a spreadsheet/etc can give you the context necessary to come to that understanding. So don't let us stop you from gaining that knowledge-set.

Still, here's a link that short-circuits some of that toil without spoiling anything. In the X4 wiki, there's a chart that gives you the info you REALLY need at this moment: trade wares, their prices, and crucially, their item volume.
https://egosoft.com:8444/confluence/display/X4WIKI/Wares

The REAL info you want is potential profit per volume, the last column.
I'm also gonna cut out another unnecessary ambiguity: You can skip the black market goods, don't consider them for the moment. You won't be able to sell them without contacts first. Spacefuel, Spaceweed, Maja Dust, Stimulants,

But now I'm gonna spoil something but it's not a big deal: If you're gonna run early arbitrage trade, then focus on Medical Supplies. The demand is high, constant, and unconditional.
The item is small, expensive, and is needed in high quantities. This means a small vessel can get you a decent profit haul pretty constantly, once you find your sources and deficits. So find places that can't get the supplies they need, perhaps due to warfare, and source them from where it's plentiful. Usually the source is a faction that's got safe and plentiful Ice.

[nocforweb]

Originally posted by MOK:

If you like spreadsheets, try Eve hehe. It can somehow make spreadsheets fun, if that's the way your brain's wired. And it's got the depth, breadth, and competitiveness to rationalize it. I never knew I loved spreadsheets until Eve taught me that I did.

But as for this game, I understand that first impression about needing to track the data better. What you'll find over time is that you won't really need such a tool in practice. But initially, the fact-finding process from a spreadsheet/etc can give you the context necessary to come to that understanding. So don't let us stop you from gaining that knowledge-set.

Still, here's a link that short-circuits some of that toil without spoiling anything. In the X4 wiki, there's a chart that gives you the info you REALLY need at this moment: trade wares, their prices, and crucially, their item volume.
https://egosoft.com:8444/confluence/display/X4WIKI/Wares

The REAL info you want is potential profit per volume, the last column.
I'm also gonna cut out another unnecessary ambiguity: You can skip the black market goods, don't consider them for the moment. You won't be able to sell them without contacts first. Spacefuel, Spaceweed, Maja Dust, Stimulants,

But now I'm gonna spoil something but it's not a big deal: If you're gonna run early arbitrage trade, then focus on Medical Supplies. The demand is high, constant, and unconditional.
The item is small, expensive, and is needed in high quantities. This means a small vessel can get you a decent profit haul pretty constantly, once you find your sources and deficits. So find places that can't get the supplies they need, perhaps due to warfare, and source them from where it's plentiful. Usually the source is a faction that's got safe and plentiful Ice.

Sweet! Thank you so much for the tips and the links! The producer / consumer bit is Super helpful to, I couldn't even begin to figure out the pattern there since it seemed what was bought and sold was changing constantly between stations.

Hmm.. it feels like I'm missing a critical component though to go from 'I think I need a spreadsheet' to 'just look at averages / average profit per volume'... Ok, early start. I did make a spreadsheet (in the pics above). Went through every base I could see across 7ish or so systems. Foundations Arg start 'cause that's what YT vids seemed to indicate for new players.

So here's the current state of medical supplies (as an example):
Sell:
* (Arg.Prime) Medical Supply Factory II: $63
* (Arg.Prime) Medical Supply Factory I: $63
* (BlackHoleSun V) Argon Trading Station $64
* (Grand Exchange III) $53

Buy:
* (Arg.Prime) High Tech Factory $61
* (Arg.Prime) Silicon Refinery I $61
* (Arg.Prime) Drone Component Factory I $63
* (SecContact II) Antimatter Cell Factory $58
* (SecContact II) Quantum Tube Factory I $55
* (BlackHoleSun IV) Medical Supply Factory I $64
* (BlackHoleSun IV) Refined Goods Complex I $64
* (BlackHoleSun IV) Drone Component Factory I $58
* (BlackHoleSun IV) Graphite Refinery I $47
* (BlackHoleSun IV) Weapon Component Factory I $58
* (Grand Exchange III) Smart Chip Factory I $68

Until I unlocked Grand Exchange (jumped out of Argon space) there was at best a $1 profit per part - and that fluctuates a lot too so soon as I start buying out of a station the price seems to jump up. (And, at the scope of only 6-7 systems, those numbers are similar to the average to be related, but with drastic enough localized divergence to make it rather non-useful). Or maybe in the early game the economy is more all-over the place and fluctuating? (Microchips for example say there is a $12.95 profit per volume, but in my current systems they are $125 profit. Meanwhile Nostrop Oil should be $27 per volume but I haven't seen any station yet actually selling it.

It feels like to take advantage of what you mention I need to maybe have a lot more stations explored or something initially? Rather then investing in traders and miners should I maybe be buying some cheap scout ships and letting them go wild exploring the map? Maybe some constantly bouncing around updating prices or dropping off satellites all over the place or something? Is that the part I'm missing?