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I partially agree on your points about Elite-Dangerous. But actually Elite-Dangerous provides you with multiple paths to choose from.
Solo players can go on with the grindy path of farming missions and getting better ships. But it is their decision. This is one of the many paths you can take in Elite Dangerous.
And Elite is not the game it was 5 years ago.
For instance there is the faction war (power-play) feature. You can align yourself with one of the factions and as a community effort try to expand their territories. I had one of the best PVP Role-play experiences in faction war. Because all real players in Elite universe can see which factions are attempting to take-over (through undermining and control) their systems. And prepare their defenses accordingly. Once you enter their systems you'll meet with many pvp players (who do role-play as well) which try to stop you from carrying out your mission.
You can also choose to become an explorer in Elite dangerous. There are tens of thousands of star systems which are currently not explored. Plus you can find masterfully rendered natural phenomena such as black holes, neutron stars, binary systems, cool looking gas planets. You can earn good amounts of money by exploration alone. And you name the systems you find so all players will know that it was you who discovered these systems.
With the newest addition the players can now purchase capital ships with dockling pads which can act as base of operations for their squadron. This makes deep space missions much more interesting.
Elite is a constantly evolving game and within the last 1.5 years devs added many good and complete features to the game. For instance with the upcoming patch the players will be able to leave their spaceships and fight on ground with their characters.
Elite I think is a much more polished game. I consider it as a technological masterpiece. For instance the game can dynamically render surfaces of planets and you can land on them without any loading screens etc at all. And the view from a planet's surface is just beautiful.
The only part which makes X4 interesting is the empire building part really. The game lets you own stations, fleets, various assets.
But since you cannot automate your assets properly because of various bugs, badly implemented features these features turn into a big pain rather than joy as your empire gets bigger. Because you need to babysit just everything in the game.
Plus Faction AI is also broken. In game factions do not try to expand their territories. They don't carry out plans of their own and they don't create trade volume properly so the in game trade dies out as you play the game longer.
Getting the best out of Elite-Dangerous requires you to be a social player. When a casual player who do not want to socialize enter the Elite-Dangerous world he/she could easily pick the grindy path (because it is safer and away from trouble) and mistakenly think that Elite is all about grind.
The adrenaline you feel when you are about to lose your 150 million $ (in game currency) ship to a band of pirate pvpers is what makes Elite a fun game. You can of course be one of that pirates which doubles the fun :D.
You're not being entirely honest here, the trade works pretty well, i've started a game recently and i'm making hundreds of millions, all automated. A trading fleet is obviously going to affect performance the bigger it gets, that's not a mistake in the game developement, but a simple fact due to hardware limitations (that is not to say that performance can't be improve, but it is something that obviously will require increasingly more computing power). The best is to have mining fleets feeding stations, this way you can save on performance by having less entities in game for more income.
As for your earlier claim about performance during fight
I'm on a laptop with medium hardware (1060 and a decent cpu), i had plenty of fights with my raptor (carrier filled with 100 S ships) in xenon sectors, regularly against multiple caps and dozens of enemy fighters, so easily 150+ ships arround, all that in third person camera,and haven't noticed the game slowing down be it just once.
How long has it been since you played X4? it was rought when it came out, as have been all X games, but it is much better now.
This is because a) you are probably trying to micro your formations when you shouldn't, b) pilots respond to orders depending on their skill levels, and c) each pilot/NPC in the game acts as an individual agent by design and responds to a set of decision criteria, your orders being only but one of them.
You might not like that (because it means your pilots don't always do what you want them to do) but it makes the game much more realistic and organic
The game is not badly optimized, it is designed in such a way that it is very heavy on CPU. Specifically each NPC/station/ship is an individual agent taking it's own decision according to the immediate circumstances it finds itself in at any one time, all the time. The game does not "cheat" like most open world games do in this respect. It's what makes the game what it is, it makes it different to other games, it makes it special.
To make large battles work faster the game would have to either:
a) significantly reduce the number of ships involved in combat (i.e. limit fleet sizes etc)
b) script ships in fleets as single groups (as opposed to individual ships) following pre-scripted patterns (as you see in Stellaris for example)
No, it won't. That is simply incorrect.
This is incorrect:
a) trader and miner pilots will level up but slowly.
b) to level up pilots quickly you need to keep then in continuous combat (for example by building a defence station near a Xenon gate and assigning a wing of fighters to defend it)
This is entirely incorrect.
A station's automatic pricing is determined by the % of storage allocation each ware currently takes up. As stock fills, the station's price falls. Therefore you control how quickly you prices become competitive by controlling how much storage you allocate to each ware you want to sell.
If you are having problems with this the reason is probably that you have far to much storage allocated to your wares so it takes a long time before your prices become competitive.
This is true, but it is the price paid for having every single agent within the universe (person, ship, station, bullet, missile) modelled in real time all the time. Each agent and each item of data associated with each agent has to be saved individually and there are a hell of a lot of them. As said before, X4 does not "cheat" in this respect like most games do, it's what makes it special, but it also makes saving a lengthy process.
There is no doubt considerable room for improvement in both in these.
This is a a problem which Egosoft are fully aware of. There is a tolerance limit for friendly fire hits already in the game but it can't be too wide or it could too easily be abused by the player.
Being aware that flak and missiles are particularly bad for going over this limit helps avoid this situation. It is however very difficult to avoid triggering a FF incident if both your fleet and an allied fleet are fighting a Xenon fleet in the same battle.
It is generally best to:
a) turn off flak etc (turrets basically) if fighting near to an allied station
b) avoid engaging an enemy fleet an ally is already engaged with
c) if FF is triggered, immediately withdraw.
Note that so long as you don't actually kill a friendly ship or station the enemy status is temporary and short lived - a couple of minutes and it's kiss and make up, all is forgiven. Even if you do kill an enemy ships it's still kiss and make up after a couple of minutes albeit with the loss of a couple of rep points, in this case not all is forgiven.
Yes the game relaxes a number of rules and details if the player is OOS (out of sector). This has always been true of X games as it would be impossible to run the simulation otherwise.
1. Within 100 hours of play time in X4 I've managed to spawn half a dozen stations, earnt millions of in game money. Constructed a fleet with 2 Colossus carriers, around 30 Teladi Buzzard escort fighters (for extra shields), 4 destroyers. 3 Nemesis Corvette wings (5 ships each), half a dozen cerberus frigate escorts.
Know what... when you give a very simple order to your colossus flagship to pass a jumpgate towards a xenon sector it cant handle it. It passes the (without entering) jump gate. Turns around. Passes it again. Turns around again. Just a simple order like this takes loads of time. Time that is well wasted. Fighter ships stop. And they idle regularly. When you give an order to your fleet (not in battle) half of your fleet formations do not abide and stay where they are. Only the flag ship listen's to your order. Sometimes the fleet follows sometimes they don't. Sometimes half of the fleet follows. It is not an order that is given in the heat of battle. It is a very simple order (got to position X) given out of battle and your fleet can't even handle this without breaking formation. Actually breaking formation is not an issue here they simple don't move.
At the end I had to remove the fighter, destroyer, corvette wing formations from the flagship's fleet and made them a single fleet. That way I had around 10 fleets (one each for fighters, flagships, frigates) the only way to make formations work was this. But it is a great waste of time because I had to give 10 different orders to move a single fleet to some point.
When fighters attempt to dock a colossus carrier all other fighters stop their engines and wait if the carrier does not have a n available docking pad. these fighters do nothing. With a simple AI coding change they could be made to follow the flag ship. But instead they stop.
Your fleet gets disorganized. And you can't control the behavior in any way.
When fighting with big xenon fleets no matter what you do your smaller fighter craft will eventually die. There is no simpler way to replenish these fighters. Even if you have hundreds of millions of money you need to manually care for the construction of each of these tiny ships.
For instance in Stellaris you can create fleet templates and auto-build these templates from your starbases. In X4 such a thing is not possible. You need to give manual orders for every single ship. And know what unless you make your own shipyards faction shipyards are so poorly supplied that they can't batch build more than 5-6 fighters in one go. They'll run out of resources. It is quite strange that these massive space factories don't have storage space to support construction of more than 5-6 tiny fighters... Some of these shipyards are actually bugged. Even if they have enough resources they simply dont construct your ordered ships. Construction timer is shown green (meaning they can construct) and UI does not mention about any missing resources. But still they don't construct.
2. Turning off flaks or missiles to avoid ally fire is very bad game design. The AI should either be smart enough to not to fire the flaks or missiles against enemies near ally ships. Or the ally ships should be smart enough to consider this as an accident. If you ask the player to stop using these weapons then you essentially cancel half of the weapons in the game. Plus it takes a good amount of time to turn off every single flak turret in your fleet (considering you have dozens of ships).
3. For trade I didn't say the factories won't make profit. They make profit very very slowly. Because the trade AI do not exploit the basic situations it can make profit, but instead wait for the local factories to accept the prices it offers. So instead of setting auto-pricing if you just drop your sale offers by 1 credit below regional average you'll see that all your station-bound auto-traders start working (previously they idle). The AI can't understand such a simple thing. The only problem with this manually intevention is that you need to adjust it again in every hour or so if regional average changes.
4. I didn't know that the storage size affects the auto-price but if it does so it is just very very bad design. How can the player understand this? They just need a single slider to make this work. Tell the factory to set their sale prices to something below the current local average by x% percent (set x here) and also tell it to set their buy prices to something above the local price by x% percent. And boom it will work perfectly. If player sets x to 0 then the factory sells it with current average (meaning current implementation). How can a player know changing storage size would have an effect on auto-prices? Storage size of some trade good does not relate to the amount it is supplied. As a trader you can stock up a good by huge amounts and wait for its price to rise. And sell your full stock with maximum price to make profit. I can have 100.000 units of weapon components for instance but I might want to sell only 50.000 units of it. (Because I want the other 50.000 units for constructing my own fleet) why then 100.000 unit of storage space would define the auto-sale price?
5. Currently mineral mining (Nividium, Silicon etc.) earns you much more money for much cheaper cost in the game. There is no point to construct stations (for trade) unless you want to construct your own fleets or weapons.
I believe many gamers who like X series and learnt some coding can come up with simple scripts that would let you control your ships, stations etc much better.
These scripts can be saved and shared between players also. If I remember correctly previous X games enable some scripting for the AI behavior of ships. So why not X4 let this?
A good example (though not a relevant genre) is Pillars of Eternity 2 : Deadfire. In which you can easily create custom scripts for your companion AI. And you don't need to have any programming experience.
I know both games and this is my opinion based solely on their gameplay mechanics:
Elite ; choose what you want to do and do it again and again until you work yourself like a slave only to realize you will never have enough money to do what you want.
X4 ; start small and build your empire with NPC that will work for you and make money while you can just relax and do whatever you want.
In my experience Elite (even in single player) seems far more like a free MMORPG where grinding is imperative to actually progress in the game, while X4 is truly a single player game that let the player choose what to do and how to do it without wasting hours upon hours grinding and actually achieving nothing.
I just don't agree that grinding is imperative in Elite that much. Perhaps 5 years ago it was. But at the current state of the game I don't think it is true. Of course the player can pick a grindy path but it is personal preference.
There are many missions with very big rewards (quest like) that makes you earn big amounts of money in one go. You can do free exploration. Or go for PVP (Powerplay) with a squadron. In PVP ship count always matters more than the quality of the ships. So even if you fight against a player with an 200 million in game credits worth ship with full upgrades and engineering boost you can still defeat it with a squadron of 4-5 ships with basic weapons.
Elite is more like an MMORPG for social players who want to team-up with friends. It is also for players who like manually flying their spacecraft. Elite also has much better visual effects and immersive combat mechanics.
But solo experience can be repetitive (if you stick with massacre missions or trade missions) and a good number of players want solo experience from a space simulation and have little knowledge of Elite prefer this path in the beginning.
If you have guts for instance you can rather pick a solo pvp oriented path and become a pirate. You can interdict player controlled trading ships (in star systems populated by players) and steal their goods or kill them.
X4 is for relaxed solo players who like to run a trading/empire building simulation at the background. If they like to fly their ships from time to time then it is ok. But mid-to-late game is problematic because of unfinished features and bugs.
If you want true X experience Albion Prelude or Terran Conflict are better games. I would suggest you stick with those for the time being.
More like hundreds of billions of star systems that have not yet been explored. But, if you've seen 20, you've seen them all.
I have been keeping a fairly close eye on Elite's developments over the past years so I do know that they have added some new elements here and there. That being said. It hasn't really changed on a basic, foundational level. Elite is still very much a game where you are a ship (not the pilot of the ship, the ship itself) that does various things on a individual level that gets you money so you can buy new stuff for your ship or a new ship. I won't get into the PvP stuff since I will never, ever play any game on a public server if I can avoid it (I have no desire to deal with the behavior that is common on public servers these days), I won't comment on online features but even they don't really reinvent the wheel on any major level. It is still the same basic gameplay regardless of what mode you play.
Perhaps the best way to explain my feelings here is to kinda talk about what Elite ultimately wanted to be when it was first announced. Frontier's list of goals for the game were (ironically) very similar to Star Citizen's features. They wanted the ship combat/mining/exploration/trading part that we have now but they also wanted a on-foot aspect with some FPS elements and everything. The sort of "final vision" of Elite is very much the game I want to play since it moves towards casting you as the pilot/Captain and not as the ship itself. Sadly. Elite perhaps got released too soon and Frontier got very caught up with polishing and selling a VERY small slice of their final vision. What Elite does have is very well polished but it is pretty basic and doesn't really offer a lot of mechanical variety.
You won't believe it... but i agree with you.
In terms of inclomplete that is...
X3 / TC&AP are out of the Question... those had more time, more polishment and an entirely different Engine than X4 had until now.
Albeit.. i may want to suggest that Early Access needs to be rebranded into Egosoft Release Policy... for reasons only insiders understand. ;)
Eh...egosoft was doing EA way before it was cool.
Remember when you couldnt even mine asteroids in x3?
I suggest you try this community mod:
https://www.nexusmods.com/x3terranconflict/mods/106?tab=images
At least till they make x4 more updated.
X4 has got its share of bugs but also has similar charm and pretty graphics like Star Citizen (minus planetary landings). X4 doesn't have cartoony colors as seen in NMS, and IMO it hasn't felt as grindy as ED. IMO, the map and menu annoyances are still issues in the game but it has become more fun now that I've started to see my ships and hired NPC's doing the earning for me and leaving me to my lonesome to contemplate the possibilties of what to do next.