Not much of a trading game?

[TazzieDevil]

I got the game on GOG - they sent me an offer to buy, I wasn't even aware it was in development, so I grabbed it. But I find better input on discussions on steam - generally.

I played all the X games up to X2 - a lot. A little of all the X3's and almost none of rebirth. (though if I could get through the beginning, I can see it might be fun)

I really enjoy X4 (for what it is) But, the thing I love most, ever since playing a game called something like Trade Empire, on a system with 16kb of ram in the late 70's - is buying low and selling high. The thing I love about X2 is those missions for a few thousand energy cells with a time limit paying out 80k if you can make it in time.

I understood the X2 idea behind Trade, it was very similar to Wing Commander: Privateer and even Elite etc. I understood why everyone needed energy cells for example - and why if a station could use 5000 enegy cells that if they got down to 35 Energy cells - why they would pay a premium of 21 or 22 credits each for all 5000 rather than stop production. It's simple game play. Trading was fun - the chain to what a station would need to create its goods was clear.

X3 lost me a little - I felt that Egosoft fell into the trap of always trying to change things up and do each game a new different way.

X4 - honestly - I can't understand the trading system. Maybe it's more realistic - but it's a whole lot less fun. No one seems to want much of anything. Trade runs seem to max out at 5 - 10k profit and suit an auto trader more than a player. When in half the time of a trade run I can repair a station and get SOOO many more credits for a simple - I got out of my space ship and repaired something mission.

The X games have always had different ways of making money and perusing fun - but X4 seem very very light on the Trade path. Which is sad because it was the basis of why I played the games.

It's still and great game - but why step away from a trading system that was understandable and fun. I mean… if going back and forth between systems buying Energy Cells or Silicon Wafers and selling them on to supply demand floats my boat - why not? for me it's more fun than the great feature (and it is great) of walking around and welding stations etc....

If you can point me to a X4 Trading guide that makes sense please do. But the profit margins seem so low compared to virtually any other form of fun.

[Aieonae]

Granted trading had been diluted quite significant, with less timer and less astronomical demands(unless you actually build one) and significant alternative gameplay.

They likely do this to allow minute statistical issues to show up prominently.

TBH, there are trades up to the millions just not with energy cells, as the cargo capacities of the vessel limits the amount cells you can carry.

So far 1.2 mil for medical supplies is max I get on autotrade, why not more? the autotrader "buys" ware even from your own factory thats why, its telling itself the margin is not worth it.

However, its a different case in manual trading, it bypasses the margin check when dealing with station as the checker just displaying the check value and not the decision to trade.

I really hope egosoft allow us to tweak minimax trade margin for each autotrader.

Moreover, most of the needs for energy cells are already well supply in most of the controlled sectors.

Perhaps all these had compounded to the experience you are currently seeing.

Try different dealling with wares you might surprised!

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by TazzieDevil:

Trade runs seem to max out at 5 - 10k profit and suit an auto trader more than a player.

This is correct observation in many respects. The economy is not designed the same way as previous X games.

Things like ecells, medical supplies, food and so on are not bought by stations in anything like the quantities of previous X games. They buy in in dribs anbd drabs.You cannot go and buy 8000 ecells for 11Cr and expect to sell the whole lot to a station in the next sector along for 18Cr. It doesn't work like that in X4.

The AI command Distribute Wares is designed to take care of this basic stuff. A DW trader will buy a full load of ecells and trek round station after station selling 100 here, 200 there until it runs out then goes and buys another full load.

I mean you can do that yourself but you may feel, as I do, that life is too short for selling 60 ecells each to 100 stations in turn.

However there are trades that you can do that are worth a lot. The main feature of X4 trade-wise is that it is the docks, warfs and equipment docks that buy all the expensive wares relating to ship contruction and they are always short of one thing or another. Therfore you can trade in things like smart chips, engine parts, hull plates, scanning arrays etc for a lot of money. Meaning you can do full load deals quite easily.

I set auto-traders up to take advantage of this but there is no reason for you not to do it yourself were you so inclined. You could quite easily manually trade with five or six freigfters if you had a mind to becasue of the way you can stack orders in X4. It makes it much much easier than trying to run several manual trade ships in X3 for example.

You can find the trades using the trade filters on the map. I have found it helps to look at specific wares in isolation so as to get a clear idea of the market for that ware, then move on and look at another. Gradually I found the picture becoming clearer.

You do need blanket satallite coverage for trading though or you will have no idea of prices and stocks. This is one reason I never did any manual trading. I explored, mapped, layed down sat network whilst my auto-traders did the work.

Also you can trade in weed and booze of course :) Always a crust to be earned there.

And there are also supply missions offered as mission jobs by stations desinged for freighters. Again on the map there is a filter to show an icon over stations within radar range that have missions. A certain glyph refers to possible trade shipment jobs.

[Hakgova]

I have made manual trades for well over 200,000 credits. Not on energy cells but on things like smart chips and for a while engine parts. Medium size auto-traders will bring in 10,000 to 70,000 on a regular basis. The whole point is that YOU must know the market and you can't do that just flying around in couple of sectors. Get the lay of the land and find out what stations need what and find out what stations make what. Trading in X4 is much better then in previous X games in my opinion.

[Isiforo.s]

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

economy is not designed the same way as previous X games.

That's one big mistake they made in this game which is why It won't be better than the previous ones imo. Aside from that, the fight concept in this game is bad.

[TazzieDevil]

Thanks for the input everyone. i was usinf ecells as an example, i guess i haven't gotten into the game enough to find the areas where manual trading really works. I haven't really made a lot of money to be able to buy a whole ship load of expensive wares. I decided to wait on a few patches. One thing egosoft is good at is releasing games then fixing them so they actually work.

I guess I prefer the simplicity of X2, because it reminds me of Privateer which is one of my all time favourite games. Star Citizen looks amazing and they are breaking new ground at a gaming level day by day. I just wish they would hurry up and release the single player game. But it might be 2021 or 2022 before that happens... :)

[Dionysosss]

the mercury vanguard alone makes 18-20k profit per run on engine parts.
but beyond that i havent realy traded alot.

so the 5-10k are quite low if you ask me. and trading all wares at the same time is basicly the worst thing you can do. i noticed a trader should only trade 1 or 2 wares

[PeaceMaker]

The problem with games like X3 isn`t the indepth economy, but that it was JUST a spreadsheet to play. If it allowed me to get OUT of my ship and away from just the economy to take a walk, look around, stare at my ship, do other things, like X4 does, I would have happily withstood the economic grind.

I think I wrote a long review on why X3, while good, really put potential people off- It was STERILE. It didn`t think about the life that goes on around, just numbers.

And yes, I`m talking immersion.

Heck even Economists in real life get to step out and drive his car around! He isn`t stuck in his office 24\7 doing nothing else at all. that`s the point many of you miss and X4 is finally addressing.

Give me some realistic immersion and I really don`t hate the economic aspect at all.

Got my game off GOG too, but sometimes come here to see what the general consenus is.

[isemados]

You will trade in a MUCH LARGER scale, with 50 traders on a complex, and WILL get profit, thats all. Believe me, trading is HUGE. what else could it be?

[Kanaro Min]

X4 is supposed to have significant gameplay in trading, both for the player and for your AI ships. Unfortunately many factors tend to diminish or eliminate the fun: broken AI, unbalanced/unfinished economy, etc.

It'll probably work fine after another 6-12 months of development. Sadly that seems to be the rut Egosoft is stuck in - releasing Early Access games as complete titles in order to extend funding through the needed development time.

Many people have put the game on the shelf until it's all sorted out, in order to have fun when it does work. Some don't want to wait, and either install mods to get around the issues, or just brute force their way through them. X3 was definitely a different experience, but then it had years of development time (all 3 X3 games), and hundreds upon hundreds of mods to help it.

[KWAiRT]

Originally posted by ZackGee:

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

economy is not designed the same way as previous X games.

That's one big mistake they made in this game which is why It won't be better than the previous ones imo. Aside from that, the fight concept in this game is bad.

Looks like the AI is better at making self sustaining economies then it has been in previous games to me. I also used microchips and engine parts as manual sells during shortages and made good bank. After 1.5 the AI closed a few more loops and started resolving the problem themselves.

The only thing that looks broken is the fact no wars or invasions seem to fire off if the player stays Neutral to the rest of the factions and just does his/her own thing. Im sure once some more patches come out it will get better. In my current game I can still manually run microchips up to an SCA station. However my engine parts have flooded the market. At least X4 has a dynamic economy and manual trading is still there if you know where to look.

X3 the AI knew exactly what the player was doing and I swear it would cheat to make the deals the player was looking at. I see none of this happening in X4 and it seems improved to me.

[TazzieDevil]

Originally posted by EAFPeacemaker:

The problem with games like X3 isn`t the indepth economy, but that it was JUST a spreadsheet to play. If it allowed me to get OUT of my ship and away from just the economy to take a walk, look around, stare at my ship, do other things, like X4 does, I would have happily withstood the economic grind.

I think I wrote a long review on why X3, while good, really put potential people off- It was STERILE. It didn`t think about the life that goes on around, just numbers.

And yes, I`m talking immersion.

Heck even Economists in real life get to step out and drive his car around! He isn`t stuck in his office 24\7 doing nothing else at all. that`s the point many of you miss and X4 is finally addressing.

Give me some realistic immersion and I really don`t hate the economic aspect at all.

Got my game off GOG too, but sometimes come here to see what the general consenus is.

That is a really good point. The games have been a bit sterile. The Trade system in Privateer was simple enough that the game was as much about the story as anything else... Which is one of the main reasons I loved it.

I'm going to get back into X4. I'm glad I haven't seen all the trading there is to be had. I did a couple of quick missions (destroy some mines) at about 200k yesterday. It sounds to me the main difference is that in X2 you could start on the ground floor trading and keep moving up - but in X 4 you need to do some other things to get to know the systems involves and get the cash to invest in what you can see are the money making trades. But with 170 -200k 10 minute jobs. Trading would have to be really worthwhile to keep up.

I'm really looking forward to Rebel Galaxy's new game - due early this year. looks like a cross between Privateer and Firefly :)