Capital Ships

[GDS]

When I first saw cap ships in X4, I was absolutely confused. Because Behemoth (Odyssey and others) looks like a frigate. Number of turrets is disgusting, speed and maneuverability are not suited for a capital class ship (reminds me an Anaconda from Elite Dangerous which is again - more a corvette size ship). With mods it looks like and old M6 corvette from X3.

Devs, where are beautiful ships from X Rebirth? Arawn, Taranis, Fulmekron, Olmekron, Balor, Lyranea and etc?

And even do not try to tell me, that it is impossible to port them. You even didn't try to do this? You are not students with a little experience, you're a professional dev team (or not?).

I read some stupid things here about balance and sizes and want to comment:

So, are there any problems to slightly enlarge or make smaller ships from X Rebirth to fit with X4 ones? NO, even I could do this in 3D modelling program. And I don't think there is any need of that, Arawn is almost the same class and size as current Colossus, no special modding required. See ported ships from XR to X4.

1) Docks and modules? X Rebirth ships have MANY empty spaces to place all this stuff. Arawn even has an outer dock already. Even in mods with ported ships from X Rebirth we can see, how it can be made. Not perfect, but it's possible.
2) Balance? Too many turrets on X Rebirth ships? That is exactly what I want (and expect) from a capital ship, not this nonsense from X4 ones. Because current cap ships in X4 can't even defend themselves because of:
>> Lack of turrets. Seriously, destroyer (L) with 2 L and 5-6 M turrets? Are you kidding? Even X3 ships had more (not even counting from 8 to 10 forward main cannons).
>> Turret weapons has a small damage output and long cooldowns. Combined with a poor number, we have a bad fire coverage of any section of the ship. Something is terribly wrong with aiming AI - there was no such problems in previous games. Turrets that only do a fraction of fixed weapon damage and cannot properly track and hit their target (we need better fire range like 15-20 km, see VRO mod), combined with shields that do not regen while a target is under fire, creates a nightmare scenario where the small and nimble fighter can take down larger targets with no threat to its well-being. Similar can be said of the efficiency of all large ships.
>> Turrets has slow rotation, especially combined with capital ship good maneuverability (they look like frigates or corvettes from X3), when turrets often can't even properly track targets because ship turns too fast. Rotation speeds and inertia of big ships in X4 doens't match the fact these ships should be a lot slower. Now we have a situation like an existence of modern naval cruiser with a movement characteristics of a inflatable boat.
>> Turret weapons has low range and can't effectively aim at targets.

Instead of complaining about X Rebirth ships, that have "too many" turrets, better to ask yourself why current ships in X4 have so low number of them and increase this number to match X Rebirth ships. I even do not want to start talking about poor VFX and SFX of weapons, explosions, engine streams and etc. Looks like a placeholders in a alpha game.

I don't understand, how we came from this (no mods at all): https://youtu.be/23YtF7NJQ0U
To this (with mods!): https://youtu.be/35hCgdw18TY

For me, it's unplayble for now without mods like VRO and custom modded ships. Devs, what happened to your design artist? Current ships in X4 in terms of design are the WORST ships in the series. X3 ships were a lot better in all aspects (and had many turrets too). There is a nice word I can see about current cap ships and overall design of the X4. It's called - degradation. Even in comparison with X Rebirth (which most players and fans hate). It's nonsense for me :(

[Hatchero]

I at first felt the same way. As I put more time in i understand why the current cap-ships are not godly powered as the x-rebirth ships (very OP and made s/m classes pointless). It also allows the devs to add in XL battleship types and perhaps XXL. As far as looks I really do miss the designs of a few ships in Rebirth perhaps at a latter time will be added as the rebirth sectors are brought back into the jump gate network shrug.

[zpc]

Taking the crafted system modifications into account a Behemoth can devestate whole S fleets. 1:1 with Xenon capitals is also possible - but better bring in a pack. Overall I prefer it over the Odysseus (which brings the most turrets but that's about it - not my taste)

Granted, the number of turrets is toned down - but balanced against the current ships.

I have a modded installation of X4 as well - with "Rise of the Ossian Raider". You can check how the fun goes away once a Arawn MK3 with 200+ turrets opens fire. It's ridiculous to watch a K being melted down in seconds... Doesn't add fun to the gameplay.

[GDS]

No, I don't think this balance is good. A single fighter should not take down an antire L or XL battleship, as It does now. With 4 or even 5 turrets capital ships can't even land a single hit on target. But the Taranis and Arawn from mods - could. But even they can often miss a target when firing with 10 pulsar or gatling guns just in one spot. Something is terribly wrong with aiming AI - there was no such problems in previous games. Turrets that only do a fraction of fixed weapon damage and cannot properly track and hit their target (we need better fire range like 15-20 km, see VRO mod), combined with shields that do not regen while a target is under fire, creates a nightmare scenario where the small and nimble fighter can take down larger targets with no threat to its well-being. Similar can be said of the efficiency of all large ships.

Yes, I like M6 corvettes from X3, which can be used to take down an M2 (destroyer) or even M1 (carrier) ship. But it depends on your skill and some luck.

And no, X3 cap ships have good number of turrets (from 8 to 10 on sides in particular) and can actually defend themselves and use them for an attack. On the other side there were fighters with good shields and 6-8 mountings for weapons, and that mean, they had a chance to engage capital ships in squadrons or use blind spots (controlled by player).

In X4 we have absolutely disgusting balance considering capital ships, that's why I use only capital ships from mods.

P.S. Crafted mods doesn't work with turrets, only with main (forward) weapons. No sense for me.

[SpaceToast]

They are sad compared to X3 and Rebirth's capital ships, Holding out hope that the ''capital'' ships we have now will be taken back to the drawing board and brought up to par with older X series games.

[zpc]

I enjoy the new capital ships a lot. The only designs I dislike are the Teladi capitals & the paranid destroyer (should have been without the M dock & more slim)

Compared with X3 (all iterations) we now have real point defense, with each turret capable of tracking a different target. (just for those who don't remember: X3 turret groups have to target one target). The fewer turrets per ship also have the nice effect that there is no absurd bullet spam with 90% of missed shots (again blast of the past - X3 did it that way).

Compared with X:Rebirth, I only miss the Argon vessels (Fulmecron, Olmekron). Ships like the Taranis look great on it's own but aren't very fitting for the X universe. This especially goes to the Arawn which has too much Battlestar Galactica in it. In general the lack of turret diversity & customization options (which turret goes were) makes X:R capitals less enjoyable for me (that and me not being able to steer them directly). I do like the HIT/MA turrets though and miss the Sucellus deeply

[Flyingmoley]

They have changed the role of the different ship types. This is how I think of the different ship types now.

Small ships act like light fighters and scouts from X3. Some are very fast and hard to hit for a Capital ship but when they do get hit that's game over over them.

Medium Ships/ Corvettes now are more like heavy fighters. Still quite fast and can take a little bit more damage but still will die under a longer barrage

Large ships like the Behomoth now act a little bit like M6 Corvettes did from X3. They have very long range main guns and will park themselves a long way from a target and shoot. They can't go toe to toe with a Xenon I but can easily win if you use your brain. I think they should not have docks as the should not act like carriers. plus they have too few docks for anything to launched or recalled quickly so kinda pointless.

XL ships i haven't used them much yet but I do wish they would get rid of the docking system they have currently. It looks great watching the ships fly in and dock but it takes far too long. if i have one thing to wish for then i wish that carriers could use the old system of just flying in a docking bay and disappearing. So much quicker.

Like someone said earlier i think (and hope) that they will bring out more types of XL ships to fill the role of battleship as the Xenon are the only ones with a battleship currently.

If you are the pilot then you can use a small light fighter to take down a capital ship by hiding and using blind spots. takes a very long time and very boring if you ask me, but if you ask one of your pilots to do it then they will die.

That's how I use my ships for does anyone agree?

[Alith-Ahnar]

@Flyingmoley Hits pretty close to it.

Looking at it EGOsoft most likely has reshuffled prior size and designation to closer fit what historic and current naval designations would be in the X-Universe.

Destroyer are rather small Ships compared to Carrier, Battleships or even Cruiser.
In previous games EGOsoft did not really have much room to squeeze in mid sized capital ships without all together redo the designations or screw it up as happend with M6, M7 and M8.

As for the current system there are no such limitations EGOsoft or an Intrepid modder could add a Cruiser Class Capital Ship in the L bracket that is maybe twice the volume of a current Destroyer has more L and M Turrets and it would fit at least from a technical angle the same could be said about a Frigate that could be scaled up Corvettes yet still in the M bracket or could be scaled up to the extreme with a XL Battleship.

Ignoring the Awe struck immersion that is missing with such Behemoths we seen in X³:AP and X:R it is rather clear EGOsoft did not take away but made room for more yet did not fill the gap.

About the argument of balance and the casual use of it for things that are either not related to anything that would warrant balance or needs balance i for my part would love to read people actually stating what needs addressing instead of oh my immersion oh the balance oh the what ever it would make it so much easier to understand and help to change if possible what is perceived as lacking.

[GDS]

I willl just show, how I see space battle (just remember, it's year 2019 and we are entitled to demand a similar level of quality), especially between capital ships. Egosoft reached nearly similiar level in X Rebirth, now we have degradation.

https://youtu.be/R1EiYqKgJ8o

[hurepoix]

Behemoth is not a capital ship, it is a destroyer, so a fleet escort ship. There is no capital ships in game at this time if with except may be a small xenon one (and carriers which are a special case)

[GDS]

Originally posted by hurepoix:

Behemoth is not a capital ship, it is a destroyer, so a fleet escort ship. There is no capital ships in game at this time if with except may be a small xenon one (and carriers which are a special case)

I think, that it's not a destroyer. This ship can't even defend himself from 1-2 fighters (even modern destroyers can). There is a modded version - Behemoth Renegade. This ship is close to what I think should be a destroyer. Standard version - close to M6 corvette, maybe frigate, no more.

Capital ship - not only carrier. It can be any large battleship.

[Alith-Ahnar]

Originally posted by GDS:

I willl just show, how I see space battle, especially between capital ships. Egosoft reached nearly similiar level in X Rebirth, now we have degradation.

I agree fidelity did drop compared to X:Rebirth yet did improve from X³:AP.

But where made EGOsoft any mistakes or did fail to meet the telegraphed situation?
A Rather outspoken majority if you take down votes on STEAM as indicator demanded another X³ Clone with more pretty graphics and EGOsoft did deliver instead further push the limit and go for a X:Rebirth 2 meets the X-Universe 4.

[GDS]

Originally posted by Alith-Ahnar:

Originally posted by GDS:

I willl just show, how I see space battle, especially between capital ships. Egosoft reached nearly similiar level in X Rebirth, now we have degradation.

I agree fidelity did drop compared to X:Rebirth yet did improve from X³:AP.

But where made EGOsoft any mistakes or did fail to meet the telegraphed situation?
A Rather outspoken majority if you take down votes on STEAM as indicator demanded another X³ Clone with more pretty graphics and EGOsoft did deliver instead further push the limit and go for a X:Rebirth 2 meets the X-Universe 4.

The problem is, Egosoft didn't deliver us "another X³ Clone with more pretty graphics". It's something worse than X3, but better than XR in some points. Too many bad working mechanics, too many missing things, ships and overall variety.

[Axeface]

Originally posted by GDS:

I willl just show, how I see space battle (just remember, it's year 2019 and we are entitled to demand a similar level of quality), especially between capital ships. Egosoft reached nearly similiar level in X Rebirth, now we have degradation.

https://youtu.be/R1EiYqKgJ8o

Holy lord jesus christ. The effects. Funny that game is still going, I made a crappy model for it back when it was being made by the crowd - like 20 years ago? I dont even know, a long time ago.

[Alith-Ahnar]

Originally posted by GDS:

Originally posted by Alith-Ahnar:

I agree fidelity did drop compared to X:Rebirth yet did improve from X³:AP.

But where made EGOsoft any mistakes or did fail to meet the telegraphed situation?
A Rather outspoken majority if you take down votes on STEAM as indicator demanded another X³ Clone with more pretty graphics and EGOsoft did deliver instead further push the limit and go for a X:Rebirth 2 meets the X-Universe 4.

The problem is, Egosoft didn't deliver us "another X³ Clone with more pretty graphics". It's something worse than X3, but better than XR in some points. Too many bad working mechanics, too many missing things, ships and overall variety.

Heh i would flip it around worse then X:R but better then X³ from a visual standpoint and it is rather obvious where ever there are no reused X³ Textures and they did reuse lots of X³ textures.

Where it hits short is with feature parity and obfuscation of implemented.
The X Games in general have a bad reputation of being over complicated would you not agree?

X4 does not try to change this assumption but doubles down with missing or lacking information for equipment, ships, modules and commands.

Documentation is the most tedious and hardest part of Development if you fail or fall behind early on it is going to haunt you forever and it gets worse.

[GDS]

Originally posted by Alith-Ahnar:

Originally posted by GDS:

The problem is, Egosoft didn't deliver us "another X³ Clone with more pretty graphics". It's something worse than X3, but better than XR in some points. Too many bad working mechanics, too many missing things, ships and overall variety.

Heh i would flip it around worse then X:R but better then X³ from a visual standpoint and it is rather obvious where ever there are no reused X³ Textures and they did reuse lots of X³ textures.

Where it hits short is with feature parity and obfuscation of implemented.
The X Games in general have a bad reputation of being over complicated would you not agree?

X4 does not try to change this assumption but doubles down with missing or lacking information for equipment, ships, modules and commands.

Documentation is the most tedious and hardest part of Development if you fail or fall behind early on it is going to haunt you forever and it gets worse.

Just one example. Devs gave us crewmens, but no any good way to mass transfer them or assign to different roles (funny thing, this was in X Rebirth, remember pods?). What a point of having good textures (and where is good SFX, VFX and music? Why AGAIN I have to use mod to fix this?), when basic things do not work as expected?

And there is too many such examples. Bad turret aim and damage, bad missiles (against anything more than a stationary or slow target)... continue.