Transparency and Progression

[OneMoreNameless]

Hi. GOG owner here. Only played a little but have searched for info, please correct me if I'm wrong on something.

What sold me the most on CSD2 was the new holding station mechanics plus having Chef For Hire medals as a lengthy challenge to grind through. The open-ended progression wasn't to my taste, but I can appreciate the extra options it provides (eg. skipping or reverting to easy recipes rather than one-way upgrades) and visual customisation is a nice bonus. Yet despite there literally being more to unlock and choose, I too couldn't shake the feeling that it was a downgrade from CSD1's restaurant management. Why? I think the real problem here is not content or features but communication with the player.

In CSD1 progression was a series of checklists. These had their disadvantages (hands up who remembers waiting on just that 20 day count every single time!) but it always very clear to player what their next goal was and what their rewards would be. Money was vital to meet these goals so when the optional stuff (eg. menu bets) rewarded money it fed obviously into the player's progression.

Contrast this with CSD2. CSD2 gives you a single level which can be increased more flexibly, but it doesn't tell you when or what the rewards for increasing it are - or even what is actually gaining you the experience. The opaqueness removes any anticipation and hurts satisfaction as the player can't directly see how to influence it faster. Money functionally gives the same rewards (ie. recipes, chore reductions) but by decoupling it from the player's primary progression and placing greater emphasis on the game modes and customisation it doesn't affect, you devalue it to the player and risk discouraging them from using the new sides and drinks mechanics.

Put simply, CSD1 gives and presents one way to progress. CSD2 gives several ways to progress but it presents zero of them.

On its own this could be considered an unfortunate UI issue, but what really exacerbates the problem is the randomisation of unlocks. Handing the player a wide catalog of food to choose from is fine; to then lock seemingly arbitrary choices from it negates a lot of the benefit (freedom of choice) while still leaving the drawbacks (being overwhelming). And should the player set themselves a goal of unlocking a favourite food? Denied. They have no control of when it will unlock and the game doesn't even tell them what is required for a chance of unlocking it. I don't mind the grind but if you don't want to constrict players with your specific goals then you need to provide them enough reliable information to be able to set their own goals otherwise they are left with nothing to progress towards.

So. With that in mind, what could CSD2 do differently?

* Show the player ingame what their next level will unlock and when at least their next major unlock is. Anything else that directly unlocks rewards should be made clear and ideally be viewable from the same location. I cannot stress enough how basic and important this is if you expect to hook players with levelling up. It would also help to include an optional screen that displays and breaks down the experience gained from the player's most recent shift.

* If Chef For Hire is intended to be a viable standalone playstyle then it should be presented as a distinct option in the main menu and allow new shifts to also be unlocked directly by earning medals on the easier shifts. If C4H is intended as a regular break from your own restaurant then there should be clear incentives to swap between the modes such as new medals giving a temporary exp multiplier in your own restaurant or a perfect day increasing the % you earn next time you're hired. If C4H is intended to be a challenge mode for experienced players then it should start locked until the player has earned a couple of levels and be given a mild makeover in theme such as other chefs taunting that you'd never survive a day in their real restaurant, fool! ... Yeah. This honestly remains unclear to me.

* A more thematic and player-friendly system of rewards for Chef For Hire would have been to unlock the decor or signature dish from each competitor restaurant as you earn their medals. This would encourage players to dip their toes into the mode with a clear goal of their choosing to aim for OR grant a more relevant and satisfying trophy for players already focused on that mode.

* Instead of trickling in random designer objects, clump them into small themed packages. These could more easily be included in the game's lore (eg. good food makes the tower's popularity rise and a new lighting store opens up) and/or teased to the player ahead of time without spoiling the specific objects being unlocked. If nothing else they'd be easier to mentally track and feel more significant of a reward when considering redecorating.

* Consider making the placement of decorations in the designer cost money depending on their fanciness. Fully refunded if undone, partially refunded if deleted/sold later. Tweak the costs of other things to compensate, sure, but it will give another reason to push for high earnings and a nice looking restaurant will feel much more like an earned accomplishment rather than ... ugh ... a skin pulled from a lootbox.

* This is just a minor suggestion and not really related to the topic, but it would be nice for chore upgrades to have better flavour text. Roach Spray Lv.1 is not pretending to be anything but stat grinding. Imagine if instead you purchased "experimental cyberpoison" or "pest control autodial" or "in-house staff ninja poison bombers".

[Melodic Death]

I bought CSD1 not that long ago and fell in love with it. I then bought CSD2 on sale without question, but the progression is a huge letdown. I've only put about 8 hrs into it, but there is no sense of direction or nothing to work towards. CSD2 basically just feels like one big challenge mode and money really isn't that big of a deal. Buy whatever you want whenever you want.

In the first game there were bonus objectives via email, or ones you can buy with tokens. I know there are a ton more items than the first one, so it could be tricky, but I loved doing those bonus objectives. I either invested my own money to try and double it, or spent a valuble token to try and win big. If you lost then you were out of money or wasted a token, it just made it feel that more immersive. II don't see any of those in the 2nd game. So really there is no incentive to change up your menu unless you are trying to boost your buzz. Basically there is nothing for me to really care about.

Don't get me wrong, the game is still fun to play, but it's missing that progressive/immersive element to it.

[Toad]

Your own restaurant is treated like a sandbox in this game. That's not necessarily a bad thing by itself but as said, with no clear goals to work towards, it can leave the player feeling out of touch with the game. Chef-4-Hire has clearer ones like medals, medals that are tied to a lot of unlocks. It feels like CSD2 chose a quantity over quality approach. The gameplay itself is still fun and the massive slew of foods to work with is a good thing, but everything surrounding it is lackluster and poorly designed. A lot of it was post-launch additions too that definitely feels like last-minute thrown-together content.

[chubigans]

First off, thank y'all for the feedback. I greatly appreciate it!

You know, when starting this sequel, I knew that the first game had some massive progression issues. I wanted to make something completely different in the sequel, while maintaining that core element of food prep and expanding on it. I think that the gameplay part of the game I nailed really well. I spent over a year just in the fundamentals of gameplay alone, tweaking the UI and creating a fun balance of chaos and management.

Unfortunately, I only left myself a month for menu design for the main menu and front end. And that, in retrospect, was a huge mistake. All the problems you mention- the game not being concise on what unlocks will bring, the simplified upgrades menu for equipment, random unlocks of objects and such, can be tied to the limited window I gave myself. A lot of the updates since then have tried to rectify that a bit and I'm really proud of how the game stands today. But there's no denying that my decision to spend so little time on menus was a big mistake.

Another mistake I'll readily agree was a bad decision was having foods being locked away in a random order. I would not do this again should I make a sequel or spinoff of some kind down the line.

So why not go back and not have foods locked and such? The game's campaign is completely tied into the progression of unlocks and I'd basically be overhauling an entire segment of the game that people are already starting/mid-way through playing, and that will lead to even more potential for bugs, problems and issues. And I know a lot of people love the game as it stands today, and to radically change the dynamics of the game now would be making another segment of the player base upset.

I'm definitely taking what I've learned from feedback and reviews and I know, should I decide to do another CSD game, that it would be yet another dramatically different kind of game like CSD 2 was to CSD 1 because it's way more fun to make new things. But I won't be making the same kind of mistakes twice, that's for sure. That's the hope at least!

Thanks again y'all for the great feedback! I'm always learning from posts like these.

[Melodic Death]

Originally posted by chubigans:

First off, thank y'all for the feedback. I greatly appreciate it!

You know, when starting this sequel, I knew that the first game had some massive progression issues. I wanted to make something completely different in the sequel, while maintaining that core element of food prep and expanding on it. I think that the gameplay part of the game I nailed really well. I spent over a year just in the fundamentals of gameplay alone, tweaking the UI and creating a fun balance of chaos and management.

Unfortunately, I only left myself a month for menu design for the main menu and front end. And that, in retrospect, was a huge mistake. All the problems you mention- the game not being concise on what unlocks will bring, the simplified upgrades menu for equipment, random unlocks of objects and such, can be tied to the limited window I gave myself. A lot of the updates since then have tried to rectify that a bit and I'm really proud of how the game stands today. But there's no denying that my decision to spend so little time on menus was a big mistake.

Another mistake I'll readily agree was a bad decision was having foods being locked away in a random order. I would not do this again should I make a sequel or spinoff of some kind down the line.

So why not go back and not have foods locked and such? The game's campaign is completely tied into the progression of unlocks and I'd basically be overhauling an entire segment of the game that people are already starting/mid-way through playing, and that will lead to even more potential for bugs, problems and issues. And I know a lot of people love the game as it stands today, and to radically change the dynamics of the game now would be making another segment of the player base upset.

I'm definitely taking what I've learned from feedback and reviews and I know, should I decide to do another CSD game, that it would be yet another dramatically different kind of game like CSD 2 was to CSD 1 because it's way more fun to make new things. But I won't be making the same kind of mistakes twice, that's for sure. That's the hope at least!

Thanks again y'all for the great feedback! I'm always learning from posts like these. :csdsmile:

You did nail the gameplay just fine, and I thank you for making 2 great games. I understand that certain additons can't be made to the game without screwing up what is already in place. If you did make another CSD, I would love to see a Career mode that challenges you just as much as the gameplay. I think you were on the right track with the first game as far as Career mode went. There were choices that felt meaningful and I had reasons to want to change my menu. With this game I don't feel the same way. I think it's very important that the player feel immersed in the game and actually care about what is going on. I personally didn't have a preference if I was working in my own resturant or someone elses. I just didn't see anything to strive for.

It's just constructive criticism to what I think would make the game a whole lot better. Again, thanks for making 2 great, and addicting games. :D