NO SKILL POINTS?! Are they ♥♥♥♥ing serious?

[Zaxx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU-bjLEW5vA

If this is true then count me out. Kthxbye

[LupisVolk]

Originally posted by Coldhands:

Grognards man. It's why fans are the last people developers of long running series should listen to.

Thing is I am a fan. A bing one. But unless they'd have made a massive change i'd be willing to give it a try.

[SoberBarn]

Originally posted by Zamio:

unless Todd Howard has been switched with his evil, dumber twin.
.

I thought Todd Howard was the dumb twin.

[Zaxx]

Originally posted by LupusVolk:

What happened to the age old "wait and see" mentality? Now all we do is loose our collective ♥♥♥♥ at the slightest hint of infomation.

I'm pretty much on the wait and see mentality, I just have negative expectations based on Bethesda's past actions, that's all. I'm not fully against simplifying the skill system if that makes sense and has no effect on the actual depth of it.

We'll see where they take Fallout 4 but when it comes to Fallout 3 we have to keep in mind that skills and the general RPG mechanics were already dumbed down (less skills, points didn't go higher than 100, intense training perk that had a ton of ranks and you could pick it even from the start resulting in less meaningful starting stats, the stupid bobbleheads etc.). That doesn't give me much hope for a good new system.

[Ladez]

Originally posted by Coldhands:

Both were choices made during character creation in previous Fallout games. Nothing says they have to be in the same place in the new game.

Traits are supposed to be key characteristics of your character, not something that you simply pick up along the way. Tag skills could be different, but as it looks like skills are going to be merged with perks, I don't see tag skills being a thing at all.

Originally posted by Coldhands:

Even if traits and tag skills are gone, judging Fallout 4 without actually knowing how its character progression works is just being a grognard.

I'm not going to just sit idly by and wait. If I have critiques about how things are looking I'm going to mention them. I do not appreciate your attempt to shut down conversation on the matter.

Originally posted by D‎‎r‎‎.‎ O‎‎cs‎‎id:

Using a swear word at one point in a sentence does not equate to "cussing you out". Get off your high horse.

Point taken. I just get weary of watching people cuss each other out. I apologize.

Originally posted by D‎‎r‎‎.‎ O‎‎cs‎‎id:

You yourself acknowledged in another thread that they stated they would have the special system. One poster stated "They wouldn't have special if they were removing character perks and skills. therefore, logic dictates they will be there." and you responded with "Again, traits and tag skills are gone.", a statement with no logic or basis. You're jumping to conclusions.

Let's review those posts.

Originally posted by theROFLpacman:

They wouldn't have special if they were removing character perks and skills. therefore, logic dictates they will be there. Why would he be editing them otherwise?

There's nothing preventing them from having SPECIAL without skills. It wouldn't truly be SPECIAL as all the stats are components of the SPECIAL system, but they can cut skills out regardless if they feel like it.

Originally posted by theROFLpacman:

One other poster said they revealed perks in the after show, and perks are tied into skills. Therefore, we'll have skills, perks, and special.

Does not follow. The existence of perks does not mean that we'll have skills. Not all perks are tied to a skill. From the looks of it, skills are going to be merged with perks, evidenced by the usage of ranked skill/perk icons in the crafting menu.

Originally posted by Ladez:

Again, traits and tag skills are gone.

This is true, but not specific to the other post. I'm merely reiterating a point from earlier on. Look in the top of this post for an explanation why. Maybe we haven't seen the full character creation yet, true, but they didn't have traits in FO3 so there's precedence for that and with the signs pointing to skills and perks being merged I don't see tag skills being a thing.

Originally posted by Ladez:

As for skills in general, signs point to them being gone, but I know that we'll have to see.

And here I even fully admit that we will have to wait and see. I'm not jumping to conclusions. I haven't passed judgment on the game yet. But I'm at libery to critique any information that I see. I care about the franchise and I want to debate how it's going to turn out. You may think that it's useless to speculate, but if so, what are you even doing here except to circle jerk in admiration of the game, which would be equally pointless without having seen it finished?

[Coldhands]

Originally posted by Ladez:

Originally posted by Coldhands:

Both were choices made during character creation in previous Fallout games. Nothing says they have to be in the same place in the new game.

Traits are supposed to be key characteristics of your character, not something that you simply pick up along the way. Tag skills could be different, but as it looks like skills are going to be merged with perks, I don't see tag skills being a thing at all.

Originally posted by Coldhands:

Even if traits and tag skills are gone, judging Fallout 4 without actually knowing how its character progression works is just being a grognard.

I'm not going to just sit idly by and wait. If I have critiques about how things are looking I'm going to mention them. I do not appreciate your attempt to shut down conversation on the matter.

Drawing conclusions based on very incomplete information and your own stick-in-the-mud bias, and then judging the game based on those conclusions is dumb, whether you appreciate me saying so or not.

[LupisVolk]

Originally posted by Coldhands:

Drawing conclusions based on very incomplete information and your own stick-in-the-mud bias, and then judging the game based on those conclusions is dumb, whether you appreciate me saying so or not.

I don't get why people do this.

[Ladez]

Originally posted by Coldhands:

Drawing conclusions based on very incomplete information and your own stick-in-the-mud bias, and then judging the game based on those conclusions is dumb, whether you appreciate me saying so or not.

That is your opinion.

[Coldhands]

^Yes, it is.

[Ladez]

Good. Are we done here? I'm getting weary of being told I'm not allowed to say my opinion.

[LupisVolk]

Originally posted by Ladez:

Good. Are we done here? I'm getting weary of being told I'm not allowed to say my opinion.

Opinions are no problem. issue is many treat thier opinions as fact.

[Ladez]

If I have done so I apologize. Fallout means a lot to me.

That is all.

[HardCoreCasual]

perks ARE skills now. the only real difference is instead of a % you have ranks. so 50% skill needed is now rank 5 needed. is it REALLY all that different? is it?

[Ladez]

Yes. For one thing, perks are supposed to be something that enhances or changes a character in a unique way. Having perks that merely make you better at a given activity is bad perk design. That's what skills are for. Secondly, having a perk/skill merger that only allows five or so ranks (presumably, we don't know yet) is a step down from being able assign a longer range of points. Overall, such a system would be unnecessary simplification of the otherwise excellent SPECIAL system.

[Coldhands]

Originally posted by HardCoreCasual:

perks ARE skills now. the only real difference is instead of a % you have ranks. so 50% skill needed is now rank 5 needed. is it REALLY all that different? is it?

If that's the case, I'm more interested than I'd be if they just used Fallout 3 style SPECIAL system again.

[HardCoreCasual]

Originally posted by Ladez:

Yes. For one thing, perks are supposed to something that enhances or changes a character in a unique way. Having perks that merely make you better at a given activity is bad perk design. That's what skills are for. Secondly, having a perk/skill merger that only allows five or so ranks (presumably, we don't know yet) is a step down from being able assign a longer range of points. Overall, such a system would be unnecessary simplification of the otherwise excellent SPECIAL system.

is so hard to think that perks can do both? i feel like we are all simply arguing over what to call them. their function would essentially remain the same.