Railroad, Desdemona question

[MikeCobalt]

Hey everybody :)
In short, "What the **** is wrong with Dez??
When the Prydwen flew over Ft Hagen I thought I'd better hurry and make sure they have as little effect as possible and do everything first with my Minutemen. This led to my visiting the Railroads HQ. A few days later I'm Banished from the Institute, I tell the Railroad rep. "Yes I'll join", then I destroy the institute a day later with the Minutemen (and Cait & Buddy).

So a day later I go to the Railroad HQ and Dez is telling me "Get the **** out". I'm like "WTH is wrong with you, I've just completed your biggest wish not to mention siding with Dima at Far Harbors Acadia for that "Best possible ending" and now your talking about shooting me"...
Is this a bug because it surely doesn't make any sense at all unless Dez is actually trying to run the Railroad into the ground over time. She should be thanking me plus I'm sure while I was "Walking Out" I heard somebody (Not Cait) say "Your a Hero you know".
Totally Nutz.

[Ihateeverybody]

Wild stab in the dark guess. You didn't do any of the quests for the Railroad. Depending on the choices you made during the final battle, I could argue they came into play (Leaving Synth Saun, not sounding the evac, etc.)

Mostly I am Guessing its because you didn't do their quest lines so they have no basis for affinity to your actions.

If you had progressed their quests to a certain point and then been kicked out of the Institute she would have pointed you to the Minutemen as an alternative force to take out the Institute. I know because I usually do the RR up to the Point of Conflict with the BOS and then bail for the MM ending (I don't like RR manning Checkpoints Post Game).

Edit: Corrected wrong Faction in conflict.

[Zekiran]

Without doing anything for them, you are not, in fact, sided with them.

[MikeCobalt]

Originally posted by Ihateeverybody:

Wild stab in the dark guess. You didn't do any of the quests for the Railroad. Depending on the choices you made during the final battle, I could argue they came into play (Leaving Synth Saun, not sounding the evac, etc.)

Mostly I am Guessing its because you didn't do their quest lines so they have no basis for affinity to your actions.

If you had progressed their quests to a certain point and then been kicked out of the Institute she would have pointed you to the Minutemen as an alternative force to take out the Institute. I know because I usually do the RR up to the Point of Conflict with the BOS and then bail for the MM ending (I don't like RR manning Checkpoints Post Game).

Edit: Corrected wrong Faction in conflict.

Well, I did bring Shaun out so he's safe now, and ofcourse I did sound the Evacuation alert, as for doing their quests the RR was only a rumor (storywise) until a day or two before I *Infiltrated the Institute with their help and Virgil's, there was no time to stop everything and do their petty side quests. Add to that just minutes after I'm banished from the institute both BoS and RR representatives are wanting answers (for offenses I didn't do) and a minute later, comes the notification the Institute is going to attack the castle, again, I chose the bigger problem over the side issue. Virgil's complete character reversal also has no basis.

These series of turns, events and character changes don't make any sense at all, who wrote this quest?

[Zekiran]

You have to understand that this was first: written 11 or more years ago while the game was in progress. And second: only has very very specific paths that the game will understand.

If you don't do their missions, you are not a member of the faction. Plain and simple just because you as a player understand the bigger picture, does not in any way confer even one single line of code or dialog that was made to that effect. What it is capable of is written in the dialog options. If you chose not to do any missions for the RR, they are not going to be friendly to you, Virgil will be angry because you destroyed the institute and he did in fact want to go home to it.

When you're first offered the opportunity to work with each of the factions, all of their quest lines are 'open'. But if you do anything that conflicts with any of them, including 'end game' such as destroying the one faction's location, ALL of those other quests are rendered FAILED. So the game under the hood only knows that your character has failed or disrupted their faction, and acts accordingly.

It's not like playing a tabletop game where your GM and other players have brains capable of the bigger picture. This game has a very limited amount of brain space and does not AT ALL count on the character having a wide view either. That's why there are only 4 dialog options...

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by Zekiran:

If you don't do their missions, you are not a member of the faction. Plain and simple just because you as a player understand the bigger picture, does not in any way confer even one single line of code or dialog that was made to that effect. What it is capable of is written in the dialog options. If you chose not to do any missions for the RR, they are not going to be friendly to you, Virgil will be angry because you destroyed the institute and he did in fact want to go home to it.

In Virgil's case, even if he didn't think he'd ever go back, it's also the place where everyone he ever knew lived. Having to flee doesn't mean he stopped caring about them.

In the Railroad's case I wouldn't be surprised if they're ticked off because sounding the evacuation is mainly going to help the hundreds of regular humans living there (at least if you're not explicitly working with the Railroad at the time). It doesn't mean all the Gen 3 synths that the Railroad cares about saving get away, so they may have more legitimate objections even beyond dialogue limitations.

In regard to DiMA, he's got a different approach to the Railroad so they're not entirely on the same page in their operations. He values synths as their own special type of person, where the Railroad treats them like regular people who just happened to be created as slaves and wants to save them as individuals.

[MikeCobalt]

Originally posted by Zekiran:

You have to understand that this was first: written 11 or more years ago while the game was in progress. And second: only has very very specific paths that the game will understand.

If you don't do their missions, you are not a member of the faction. Plain and simple just because you as a player understand the bigger picture, does not in any way confer even one single line of code or dialog that was made to that effect. What it is capable of is written in the dialog options. If you chose not to do any missions for the RR, they are not going to be friendly to you, Virgil will be angry because you destroyed the institute and he did in fact want to go home to it.

When you're first offered the opportunity to work with each of the factions, all of their quest lines are 'open'. But if you do anything that conflicts with any of them, including 'end game' such as destroying the one faction's location, ALL of those other quests are rendered FAILED. So the game under the hood only knows that your character has failed or disrupted their faction, and acts accordingly.

It's not like playing a tabletop game where your GM and other players have brains capable of the bigger picture. This game has a very limited amount of brain space and does not AT ALL count on the character having a wide view either. That's why there are only 4 dialog options...

Yea, I'm sure your right.
Those "Children of Atom" at *The Crater did change their attitude when I told them I was at "The Nucleus" in Far Harbor though and that is a very small issue compared to Main Story stuff so the DLC choices do matter (atleast in the minor issues > Backwards) and yet Dez seems to have no knowledge or considers her personal paranoia to be more important.

Virgil knew exactly why I was going there he helped and his tape seconded that so the prospect of "Going Home" woulda got him killed as soon as he was close enough to see the building IF, a courser or the Glowing Sea's fauna and rads didn't kill him first, his dialogue in the 1st meeting said that. Dez already knew we were going to the institute and a few days later the entire Institute is gone permanently, we visit and she's more vicious than she was the very 1st time I walked in to meet, no sense at all.

I've known the Bethesda games for a long time and some quests have "Went Sideways",
but this, this is just very bad writing. In this time I've noticed quite a few "RR's Problem(s)" articles and I've avoided them wanting to see it fresh, I'll certainly be reading/watching those now but it really seems to me the RailRoads biggest problem is Dez herself, maybe she's the reason they are in a hole under a wrecked church with her decisions including pushing away a partnership with the faction that just destroyed their biggest demon, can stand up to (Put down/Silence) the Brotherhood and already has the support of the entire commonwealth.
It seems like I should care if the BoS talks about raiding that old wrecked church and wiping the RR out, but considering how Dez acted........
I probably would anyway (Need a mod for this, Stand at the Church with 15-25 MM and face down and or defend that church and all the Peeps inside).

[Zekiran]

Also remember that this writing that you think is 'bad' is pretty strongly accurate as far as "no faction is entirely good or entirely bad". Even though I usually side with the Institute it's for an entirely other reason: I steal everyone's clothing there and outfit many settlers in my modded areas with their outfits. >_> Can't do that if you don't have access. :D

I certainly think that Des is among the worst characters in the game, honestly, because she IS pretty low on the 'can see the big picture' side. But she IS accurately portrayed as a charismatic leader who thinks too highly of their own opinion and believes every ounce of her own hype. That is something that Maxson does as well only he is also a raging bigot.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by Zekiran:

Also remember that this writing that you think is 'bad' is pretty strongly accurate as far as "no faction is entirely good or entirely bad". Even though I usually side with the Institute it's for an entirely other reason: I steal everyone's clothing there and outfit many settlers in my modded areas with their outfits. >_> Can't do that if you don't have access. :D

I certainly think that Des is among the worst characters in the game, honestly, because she IS pretty low on the 'can see the big picture' side. But she IS accurately portrayed as a charismatic leader who thinks too highly of their own opinion and believes every ounce of her own hype. That is something that Maxson does as well only he is also a raging bigot.

I mean, if you're going to be part of an organization risking your life to save the enslaved, there's something to be said about having a leader who truly believes in the cause and doesn't flinch when it comes to upholding her ideals.

Desdemona's willing to engage in a major battle at Bunker Hill to save just four synths, because throwing away individual lives when she could try to save them isn't in her nature. It contrasts sharply with DiMA, who has similar compassion and ideals, but whose methods are much more calculating and pragmatic, even if it means sacrificing his own sentiments.

[Zekiran]

Oh yeah, that's why I will never relate to the RR or anyone else where Acadia is.

>_> hopefully not a spoiler lol.

[MikeCobalt]

At this point, Dez has pushed away the only faction that woulda helped her and the RR and really *Caustic at that. Again, maybe this is why her Railroad is under a wrecked building hiding in the dirt and doomed (so far) to stay just as that. The institute is gone, those that wanted out I made sure could, the boy is safe both I've learned are the same choices the RR woulda wanted themselves. Also with the matured Minutemen I coulda defended her and the RR indefinitely if not to shoot down that Prydwyn and wipe out the BoS altogether (It'll probably come to that anyway) another enemy of the RR that they'll need "Help" with, but no, Dez and her choices push's that away also.
It seems shes actually working to reduce the RR, blinded by some form of "Only MY way" or simply bad writing. Other Beth. games always compensated when the player arrived at the right spot but through different means even FO4 so far as I've seen, but not Dez's dialogue.
I guess Dez likes to hide and feel this way, she keeps refusing help.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by MikeCobalt:

At this point, Dez has pushed away the only faction that woulda helped her and the RR and really *Caustic at that. Again, maybe this is why her Railroad is under a wrecked building hiding in the dirt and doomed (so far) to stay just as that. The institute is gone, those that wanted out I made sure could, the boy is safe both I've learned are the same choices the RR woulda wanted themselves. Also with the matured Minutemen I coulda defended her and the RR indefinitely if not to shoot down that Prydwyn and wipe out the BoS altogether (It'll probably come to that anyway) another enemy of the RR that they'll need "Help" with, but no, Dez and her choices push's that away also.
It seems shes actually working to reduce the RR, blinded by some form of "Only MY way" or simply bad writing. Other Beth. games always compensated when the player arrived at the right spot but through different means even FO4 so far as I've seen, but not Dez's dialogue.
I guess Dez likes to hide and feel this way, she keeps refusing help.

There's a conflict of interests even with the Minutemen because they're fundamentally a self-defense collective and much of the local population has a hostile attitude towards the synths that the Railroad aims to save. One wants to save synths, the other wants them gone because they see synths as a threat.

There are some enemy-of-my-enemy factors around, but the two factions aren't fundamentally on the same page on the issue of synths.

[Zekiran]

I do wish that we could more easily make her - and everyone ELSE in the Commonwealth at large - realize "it's not the Synths, it's the people MAKING them and turning them into killing machines against you". In my headcanon (and for the most part by using the Subversion mod too) when I take over the institute, I do it without murdering the RR and taking out people in the institute council that disagree with whatever my course of action is.

screw Ayo, man that guy is awful.

[MikeCobalt]

Well, Dez has "Dug her own Grave" (that's she's already in). Immediately after I was Banished from the Institute I said "Yes" when asked if I'd join the RR but defending the Castle *Now (from her own Enemy) was more important (plus, if the MM lost that, who would later defend the RR?). if that was her only reason to threaten the PC and separate the factions, so be it.
Poor writing and/or unlike other titles, they didn't include a dialogue option to get around this. Maybe the long term plan for FO5 is this chapter of the RR is to be wiped out, it certainly looks like it so far; nobody would push away the dominant defending force knowing that another antagonistic force has arrived. The RR cannot defend themselves from the BoS (from what I've seen) but the Minuteman can.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by Zekiran:

I do wish that we could more easily make her - and everyone ELSE in the Commonwealth at large - realize "it's not the Synths, it's the people MAKING them and turning them into killing machines against you". In my headcanon (and for the most part by using the Subversion mod too) when I take over the institute, I do it without murdering the RR and taking out people in the institute council that disagree with whatever my course of action is.

screw Ayo, man that guy is awful.

There's always that problem of how to prove that any given synth isn't an Institute spy, which is where the Brotherhood has an issue. Though that's a problem with spies in general, since any sufficiently dedicated human has the potential to infiltrate and sacrifice their life in the name of a cause. The Gen 3 synths just make it easier because they can be purpose-built, even if the Institute isn't all that interested in doing it (either because they have nothing to gain or because they have enough armed force to make infiltration unnecessary).

Justin Ayo is what the surface imagines the entire Institute to be like, since he actually wants to wield power and control everything to his liking while for others it's just a means to the end of doing science.

Originally posted by MikeCobalt:

Poor writing and/or unlike other titles, they didn't include a dialogue option to get around this. Maybe the long term plan for FO5 is this chapter of the RR is to be wiped out, it certainly looks like it so far; nobody would push away the dominant defending force knowing that another antagonistic force has arrived. The RR cannot defend themselves from the BoS (from what I've seen) but the Minuteman can.

It does get a lot more complicated to write all the potential interchanges between factions compared to have them being entirely independent, though the reason it's an issue in Fallout 4 is that their priorities don't seem completely incompatible. So it seems forced when they behave like soap opera characters who create drama by not talking to each other, or when they fail to explain the details that make cooperation impossible.

Compare it to New Vegas and Fallout 3, where no-one was objecting to the factions opposing each other because their nature and reasons were clear and coherent.

It's not helped by the Minutemen and Institute being relatively passive, which makes a compromise seem more likely. They don't have grand goals that put them unavoidably at odds with the others, even if the Institute's internal attitude about Gen 3 synths is opposed to both the Brotherhood and Railroad (the synths are just tools to the Institute, not vital to the agenda of their faction).

[MikeCobalt]

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

Originally posted by Zekiran:

I do wish that we could more easily make her - and everyone ELSE in the Commonwealth at large - realize "it's not the Synths, it's the people MAKING them and turning them into killing machines against you". In my headcanon (and for the most part by using the Subversion mod too) when I take over the institute, I do it without murdering the RR and taking out people in the institute council that disagree with whatever my course of action is.

screw Ayo, man that guy is awful.

There's always that problem of how to prove that any given synth isn't an Institute spy, which is where the Brotherhood has an issue. Though that's a problem with spies in general, since any sufficiently dedicated human has the potential to infiltrate and sacrifice their life in the name of a cause. The Gen 3 synths just make it easier because they can be purpose-built, even if the Institute isn't all that interested in doing it (either because they have nothing to gain or because they have enough armed force to make infiltration unnecessary).

Justin Ayo is what the surface imagines the entire Institute to be like, since he actually wants to wield power and control everything to his liking while for others it's just a means to the end of doing science.

Originally posted by MikeCobalt:

Poor writing and/or unlike other titles, they didn't include a dialogue option to get around this. Maybe the long term plan for FO5 is this chapter of the RR is to be wiped out, it certainly looks like it so far; nobody would push away the dominant defending force knowing that another antagonistic force has arrived. The RR cannot defend themselves from the BoS (from what I've seen) but the Minuteman can.

It does get a lot more complicated to write all the potential interchanges between factions compared to have them being entirely independent, though the reason it's an issue in Fallout 4 is that their priorities don't seem completely incompatible. So it seems forced when they behave like soap opera characters who create drama by not talking to each other, or when they fail to explain the details that make cooperation impossible.

Compare it to New Vegas and Fallout 3, where no-one was objecting to the factions opposing each other because their nature and reasons were clear and coherent.

It's not helped by the Minutemen and Institute being relatively passive, which makes a compromise seem more likely. They don't have grand goals that put them unavoidably at odds with the others, even if the Institute's internal attitude about Gen 3 synths is opposed to both the Brotherhood and Railroad (the synths are just tools to the Institute, not vital to the agenda of their faction).

Right,
Even if not considering the Main Issue of the MM destroying the RailRoads chief enemy (The RR knew what I was planning, they helped even) or that I did tell the representative "Yes, I'll join (The RR)" after I was banished (by their enemy) or even the upcoming fight against the BoS (They had to have known the brotherhood had recently arrived) the point of being so caustic and literally pushing me and the MM out was unthinkable. I cant believe anybody would do that. As for a union or partnership with the RR and MM's different ethics, that has no reason to last.

My character is in the BoS but only so much as to have my foot in the door. I'm sure at some point Maxon will do something I wont let pass so I'll have to turn but until then, I will know whats going on and probably get an early "Heads Up" *Before they do anything that could threaten My settlers, settlements, or the Commonwealth in general.
I guess Dez may have not thought being shortsighted when a known threat stands is a bad thing. Whether she likes the MM's planning or not, she'll still need the Minutemens soldiers and weapons even if only for s short time. There's no way I would immediately push out the acquaintance that very recently silenced my biggest threat.
Dez will get them all killed, and that'll likely make Dima feel even worse.