In a world where the A-bombs never fell

[Ged]

Ok so I know the title sounds confusing, but in any way it is not about the so-called "pre-war" sections displayed on E3. It's about a larger issue prominient through the whole series. I was running across the Capital Wasteland in fallout 3 and I was looking at all this post-apocalyptic scenery, the ruins of a once-majestic city, a capital of a poweful country. This feeling grew even larger when I saw the f4 trailer: an empty house, left almost untouched as if the owners merelt left for somewhere far away and haven't returned for quite some time. And then something clicked for me - the fallout world doesn't just look like it simply aged 200 years with minor bombing (non-nuclear) here and there, it IS that way.
Simply put, in the world of Fallout (and most notably fallout 4) the nukes never fell, the nuclear war never happened. I know it sounds confusing, however one should take a look at what the bombs i the 60's were capable of and multiply that at least twice (because atompunk and all that) - in a 300-400 m area around the Ground Zero everything just turns into a lake of glass - what can burn burns and vaporizes, what can't - melts down. Moreover the zone of ABSOLUTE DESTRUCTION is 1 mile and that could happily level almost the entirety of Boston straight to the ground. None of these atmospheric skyscraper ruins.
And reinforcing that is a fact that Vault Tec has been conducting SOCIETAL EXPERIMENTS in vaults - that is they were meant to be opened one day and checked on - maybe they created this threat of nuclear devastation to test the new FEV virus (hence the irradiated surface) and prepare the vault dwellers for something... For the future I guess?
All in all just a theory, keep scrolling.

[Sonny]

Nguyên văn bởi Rantoc:

If FO was realistic you would pop radaways 24/7 rather than play the game... 200 years after that kind of fallout... LOL!

Read up on strontium 90 or cesium 137 and calculate the halflife (roughly 30 years each), after "only" 200 years the area would still be quite nasty...

Not really, the worst of the radiation would be gone in just a couple of months. The radioactive particles given off by nuclear weapons decay quickly. After 200 years, there would be very little, if any, radiation.

[Zeno]

Nguyên văn bởi ^2NinetyL:

So you've been inside of the ruined buildings that have no interiors and have seen that the floors are still intact?

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

Do I need to? The walls, the roof, the windows are all intact, so why wouldn't the floors be? Every enterable building in the Capital Wasteland has intact floors, so why should the un-enterable ones be different?

Yes, you do need to. External damage isn't indicative of internal damage in all cases.

Nguyên văn bởi ^2NinetyL:

...Except the White House was directly impacted by it, and there was still a bit of structure left. And I'll go back to what I was saying before. You're taking bombs and definitions from a world that isn't ours and comparing them. They're approximately the same, but you can't expect literally everything to be pretty much the same as it is in our world.

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

And yet every building right next to the White House is no more damaged then random buildings out in the wastes. Even the weakest nuke would have destroyed the buildings around its target as well. The atom bombs used on Japan, which were thousands of times weaker, did.

Literally all that information would do is confirm that nuclear bombs are weaker in the Fallout universe.

Nguyên văn bởi ^2NinetyL:

They threw out the physical laws that govern our universe and made one that's relatively similar. Things in other possible worlds don't have to be the same as they are in this one. I really don't know what else there is to say about it.

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

I don't want to start an Interplay/Obsidian vs. Bethesda argument here, but in Fallout 1, 2, and New Vegas, nuclear weapons actually did realistic amounts of damage. Salt Lake City, for example, was completely flattened, and it probably wasn't as heavily targeted as DC. LA and San Fransisco were also very heavily damaged. The West-Tek research facility is a crater. Obviously, nuclear weapons work the same as Fallout as in real-life.

This is where an argument comes in. Okay, if they are as powerful, in that case, maybe, for whatever reason, the bombs that hit D.C. were a lot weaker than the bombs that hit other places. Any way we go around this, there are too many maybes to actually determine anything.

[Sonny]

Nguyên văn bởi ^2NinetyL:

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

So
Do I need to? The walls, the roof, the windows are all intact, so why wouldn't the floors be? Every enterable building in the Capital Wasteland has intact floors, so why should the un-enterable ones be different?

Yes, you do need to. External damage isn't indicative of internal damage in all cases.

There would probably be some indication externally if every single floor inside the building had collapsed. How would a building even still stand if the entire interior had collapsed?

Nguyên văn bởi ^2NinetyL:

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

And yet every building right next to the White House is no more damaged then random buildings out in the wastes. Even the weakest nuke would have destroyed the buildings around its target as well. The atom bombs used on Japan, which were thousands of times weaker, did.

Literally all that information would do is confirm that nuclear bombs are weaker in the Fallout universe.

Considering that WW2 happened in exactly the same way in the Fallout universe (the Fallout timeline diverges around the 60's), I find it highly unlikely that nuclear weapons in the Fallout universe were worse then atomic weapons which were developed earlier and used nuclear fission instead of nuclear fusion.

Nguyên văn bởi ^2NinetyL:

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

I don't want to start an Interplay/Obsidian vs. Bethesda argument here, but in Fallout 1, 2, and New Vegas, nuclear weapons actually did realistic amounts of damage. Salt Lake City, for example, was completely flattened, and it probably wasn't as heavily targeted as DC. LA and San Fransisco were also very heavily damaged. The West-Tek research facility is a crater. Obviously, nuclear weapons work the same as Fallout as in real-life.

This is where an argument comes in. Okay, if they are as powerful, in that case, maybe, for whatever reason, the bombs that hit D.C. were a lot weaker than the bombs that hit other places. Any way we go around this, there are too many maybes to actually determine anything.

So China launched all of its average-strength nuclear weapons at the west coast but only used extremely underpowered missiles against DC, their highest priority target?

[Zeno]

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

There would probably be some indication externally if every single floor inside the building had collapsed. How would a building even still stand if the entire interior had collapsed?

Why does it have to be the entire interior? It could just be a few floors that block the entrance.

Nguyên văn bởi ^2NinetyL:

Literally all that information would do is confirm that nuclear bombs are weaker in the Fallout universe.

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

Considering that WW2 happened in exactly the same way in the Fallout universe (the Fallout timeline diverges around the 60's), I find it highly unlikely that nuclear weapons in the Fallout universe were worse then atomic weapons which were developed earlier and used nuclear fission instead of nuclear fusion.

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

So China launched all of its average-strength nuclear weapons at the west coast but only used extremely underpowered missiles against DC, their highest priority target?

I really don't know what else to say about it. We've seen that D.C. and Boston are still standing, for the most part. They're there. The Chinese may have had motives we don't know anything about, which is why I said there are too many maybes. To be honest, even though it got hit by a relatively small amount of nuclear bombs, a great deal of structures are also standing in New Vegas. Maybe it's just a new artistic direction. I don't have all the answers; I just know what I've seen in the last three Fallout games (Fallout 4 included).

[Sonny]

Nguyên văn bởi ^2NinetyL:

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

There would probably be some indication externally if every single floor inside the building had collapsed. How would a building even still stand if the entire interior had collapsed?

Why does it have to be the entire interior? It could just be a few floors that block the entrance.

But many buildings in Fallout 3 don't even have any kind of door.

Nguyên văn bởi ^2NinetyL:

I really don't know what else to say about it. We've seen that D.C. and Boston are still standing, for the most part. They're there. The Chinese may have had motives we don't know anything about, which is why I said there are too many maybes. To be honest, even though it got hit by a relatively small amount of nuclear bombs, a great deal of structures are also standing in New Vegas. Maybe it's just a new artistic direction. I don't have all the answers; I just know what I've seen in the last three Fallout games (Fallout 4 included).

First, the reason Vegas is intact is because it was not hit by any nuclear weapons. 9 missiles detonated in the Mojave, but none hit Vegas. The damage is mostly from neglect.

Second, what possible motive could the Chinese have for keeping the East Coast intact after a nuclear war? The reason it is so intact is because Bethesda wanted it to be, not because missiles in Fallout are less powerful then dynamite or the Chinese didn't want to destroy the east coast.

[Mike]

Nguyên văn bởi PontiusP:

Nguyên văn bởi Rantoc:

If FO was realistic you would pop radaways 24/7 rather than play the game... 200 years after that kind of fallout... LOL!

Read up on strontium 90 or cesium 137 and calculate the halflife (roughly 30 years each), after "only" 200 years the area would still be quite nasty...

In the nuclear bombs there were microscopic quantities of the combat-type isotope you are talking about. It is true however that, having a huge half-life, they would remain fairly active, but most of the plutonium would have been used up in a blast. Quite true for 200 years I say

The problem is when the fireball hits the ground and drag in earth, water or other material it creates WAY more of thoose nasties than the bombs active material itself as well as something called neutron activation creating even more, if it was just the bombs active material itself (high altitude blasts) it would not be as long term lethal

[nomadpad]

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

I agree, the damage to urban areas in Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 have never seemed realistic to me. Vegas, I can believe, since it wasn't hit, but DC? The only building in that town which is a crater is the White House, every other bulding in the city survived with just some scorched paint. Hell, alot of windows are even still intact.

But Vault-Tec using nukes to test FEV? That's a load of crap. Vault-Tec should never have had FEV in the first place, virus' that turn people into super-soldiers have nothing to do with societal and behavioural expirements. Not to mention that it directly contradicts Fallout 1.

well it actually make sense that vault tec has the fev since money does wonders and more when the program (vault facilities alocation system) is funded by a goverment

[Sonny]

Nguyên văn bởi Somaramus:

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

I agree, the damage to urban areas in Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 have never seemed realistic to me. Vegas, I can believe, since it wasn't hit, but DC? The only building in that town which is a crater is the White House, every other bulding in the city survived with just some scorched paint. Hell, alot of windows are even still intact.

But Vault-Tec using nukes to test FEV? That's a load of crap. Vault-Tec should never have had FEV in the first place, virus' that turn people into super-soldiers have nothing to do with societal and behavioural expirements. Not to mention that it directly contradicts Fallout 1.

well it actually make sense that vault tec has the fev since money does wonders and more whena program (vaults) its funded by a goverment

No, it does not make sense. It directly contradicts a holodisk in Fallout 1, found in the West-Tek research facility (where FEV was originally created) that says that ALL materials related to FEV were being transfered to Mariposa Military Base where the military wants to begin testing on humans.

Also, why would the military take it from West-Tek, a civilian corperation, to give it to Vault-Tec, a civilian corperation?

And why does Vault-Tec have FEV in the first place? What does a super-soldier serum have to do with social behaviour?

And assuming Vault-Tec was even able to succsesfully test FEV, what good would it do anyone? No one is going to be able to utilize it after a nuclear war, they have no way of making more.

[Zeno]

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

But many buildings in Fallout 3 don't even have any kind of door.

Okay... And again, Bethesda may have originally planned to make interiors for the buildings but ran out of time. The only thing that means is that they're functionally, but not aesthetically, worthless.

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

First, the reason Vegas is intact is because it was not hit by any nuclear weapons. 9 missiles detonated in the Mojave, but none hit Vegas. The damage is mostly from neglect.

I wasn't talking about the area right outside the strip. I was more talking about places like Novac, Nipton, Goodsprings, etc. But all of these exist in a desert anyway, so it's basically impossible to tell that any nuclear bombs even fell to begin with, for the most part.

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

Second, what possible motive could the Chinese have for keeping the East Coast intact after a nuclear war? The reason it is so intact is because Bethesda wanted it to be, not because missiles in Fallout are less powerful then dynamite or the Chinese didn't want to destroy the east coast.

I. Don't. Know. I've said it at least twice now, and I'll say it again. I'm not a high-ranking member of the Chinese government in the Fallout universe. Just because you can't conceive of a reason they may have done less damage to the east coast doesn't mean there is no reason. Maybe the Chinese didn't even have anything to do with weakening the bombs. Maybe there was a spy amongst the Chinese nuclear engineers who made the bombs much less effective than they otherwise would have been but didn't have enough time to water down all of them.

What we do know: Bethesda has shown us two cities now, both on the east coast, that are mostly intact. Maybe it really is just for aesthetics. But ultimately, Bethesda is making Fallout games—ones that are considered canon. In light of that, the relatively minor destruction of Boston and D.C. is also canon. So it's best to assume, for the sake of canon, that the Chinese or some other entity weakened the bombs that happened to be dropped on certain areas.

[nomadpad]

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

Nguyên văn bởi Somaramus:

well it actually make sense that vault tec has the fev since money does wonders and more whena program (vaults) its funded by a goverment

No, it does not make sense. It directly contradicts a holodisk in Fallout 1, found in the West-Tek research facility (where FEV was originally created) that says that ALL materials related to FEV were being transfered to Mariposa Military Base where the military wants to begin testing on humans.

Also, why would the military take it from West-Tek, a civilian corperation, to give it to Vault-Tec, a civilian corperation?

And why does Vault-Tec have FEV in the first place? What does a super-soldier serum have to do with social behaviour?

And assuming Vault-Tec was even able to succsesfully test FEV, what good would it do anyone? No one is going to be able to utilize it after a nuclear war, they have no way of making more.

So the goverment does not does what it wants? Bro, Fallout lore is not just Fallout 1 and 2, as it only covers portions of what was going on with the experimentations. So what i a holodist said that? It could have been easly a lie that was told, to cover what the corporate and the higher ups from vault tec was doing for the goverment. Seriously, There is so much room for speculations, its not like F1 nor F2 ever covers in depth what was happening in every other state. And dont say that its does as you only see what happens in 4 measly states of 50states. Hence yes it makes sense, you are just too narrow minded negating posiblities just because fa1 f2 didnt say so as if the west coast was the only surviving place in the US :/

Lore is deeper, not just a holodisk, and as far as big corporations and goverments go there is allways deception and hidden truths, as such entities only give light to the convinient truth. Hystory has proved such fact. So let theories grow wild as there are too many holes in the Fallout lore that are still unexplained. And as Far as i can see Tod howard and its team in bethesda are doing an awesome job at filling those holes that blackisle left in plain view.

Hmm, i wonder why even member of the f1 and f2 teams said that F3 was a great resurrection to the francise and were pleased with bethesda's work :I

[Sonny]

Nguyên văn bởi ^2NinetyL:

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

First, the reason Vegas is intact is because it was not hit by any nuclear weapons. 9 missiles detonated in the Mojave, but none hit Vegas. The damage is mostly from neglect.

I wasn't talking about the area right outside the strip. I was more talking about places like Novac, Nipton, Goodsprings, etc. But all of these exist in a desert anyway, so it's basically impossible to tell that any nuclear bombs even fell to begin with, for the most part.

Sure it's possible to tell where, you can find several blast craters in the Mojave. And Novac, Nipton, and Goodsprings weren't hit.

Nguyên văn bởi ^2NinetyL:

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

Second, what possible motive could the Chinese have for keeping the East Coast intact after a nuclear war? The reason it is so intact is because Bethesda wanted it to be, not because missiles in Fallout are less powerful then dynamite or the Chinese didn't want to destroy the east coast.

I. Don't. Know. I've said it at least twice now, and I'll say it again. I'm not a high-ranking member of the Chinese government in the Fallout universe. Just because you can't conceive of a reason they may have done less damage to the east coast doesn't mean there is no reason. Maybe the Chinese didn't even have anything to do with weakening the bombs. Maybe there was a spy amongst the Chinese nuclear engineers who made the bombs much less effective than they otherwise would have been but didn't have enough time to water down all of them.

What we do know: Bethesda has shown us two cities now, both on the east coast, that are mostly intact. Maybe it really is just for aesthetics. But ultimately, Bethesda is making Fallout games—ones that are considered canon. In light of that, the relatively minor destruction of Boston and D.C. is also canon. So it's best to assume, for the sake of canon, that the Chinese or some other entity weakened the bombs that happened to be dropped on certain areas.

Canonically speaking, Vault 101 is supposed to have more then 20 people in it, but they only put that many in because it's a game. It's also possible that cannonicaly speaking, DC is supposed to be in much worse shape, but Bethesda didn't represent it like that in-game because they wanted an intact environment for the player to explore.

Besides, does it really seem likely that somehow spies would be able to make China's nuclear weapons do no damage to buildings but somehow still release radiation? And that all those weapons would conveniantly happen to be the ones the Chinese launched at the East Coast? How would spies even get to them at all? The Chinese would have their missiles at different bases, on ships, and even submarines.

And if you and I can't even come up with one plausible reason why China would want the East Coast to be undamaged but still have it irradiated, and everyone there dead, I think that's a pretty good indication that they didn't. There aren't any motivations for China to do so, and motivation is everything.

Also, last I checked, Fallout 1, 2, and New Vegas were still canon.

[Von Faustien]

if you want to bring science into this most of the gant bug would die at the size the games show them as due to gravity and exoskelotons not being the best way to supot lage mass's. same goes for the crabs unless they never leave the water they cant get that big. radiation doesnt make you biologicly immortal and makeing a computer thats an AI with vacum tubes would take an area bigger than the usa

[asaxander740]

Hey guys look up Neutron bombs. It might expliain why everything is reletivly intact.

[Sonny]

Nguyên văn bởi Somaramus:

Nguyên văn bởi Laudablecube56:

No, it does not make sense. It directly contradicts a holodisk in Fallout 1, found in the West-Tek research facility (where FEV was originally created) that says that ALL materials related to FEV were being transfered to Mariposa Military Base where the military wants to begin testing on humans.

Also, why would the military take it from West-Tek, a civilian corperation, to give it to Vault-Tec, a civilian corperation?

And why does Vault-Tec have FEV in the first place? What does a super-soldier serum have to do with social behaviour?

And assuming Vault-Tec was even able to succsesfully test FEV, what good would it do anyone? No one is going to be able to utilize it after a nuclear war, they have no way of making more.

So the goverment does not does what it wants? Bro, Fallout lore is not just Fallout 1 and 2, as it only covers portions of what was going on with the experimentations. So what i a holodist said that? It could have been easly a lie that was told, to cover what the corporate and the higher ups from vault tec was doing for the goverment. Seriously, There is so much room for speculations, its not like F1 nor F2 ever covers in depth what was happening in every other state. And dont say that its does as you only see what happens in 4 measly states of 50states. Hence yes it makes sense, you are just too narrow minded negating posiblities just because fa1 f2 didnt say so as if the west coast was the only surviving place in the US :/

Lore is deeper, not just a holodisk, and as far as big corporations and goverments go there is allways deception and hidden truths, as such entities only give light to the convinient truth. Hystory has proved such fact. So let theories grow wild as there are too many holes in the Fallout lore that are still unexplained. And as Far as i can see Tod howard and its team in bethesda are doing an awesome job at filling those holes that blackisle left in plain view.

Hmm, i wonder why even member of the f1 and f2 teams said that F3 was a great resurrection to the francise and were pleased with bethesda's work :I

Did you even bother to read any of what I said? There is no reason for Vault-Tec to have FEV, who would use it after a nuclear war? Please, answer me that. WHO would benefit after a nuclear war from any data gathered from a Vault?










Also, there are no holes in the lore where FEV is concerned. That holodisk was the personal log of the second-in-command of the man in charge of FEV, and that log was found in a secret, highly-fortified, weapons research facility. That disk is 100% true and trustworthy.

The military took FEV from West-Tek to expirement on it themselves. They didn't want civilians involved, so it makes no sense for them to give it to Vault-Tec, who are civilians.

[Von Faustien]

Nguyên văn bởi asaxander740:

Hey guys look up newtron bombs. It might expliain why everything is reletivly intact.

neutron bomb's* and if you want death by rads might i recomend a cobalt bomb

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_bomb