Item physics? Decorating like Morrowind?

[Nirvash]

So, Bethesda games post-morrowind have had this thing, where everything works from the physics engine. This is of course normal in modern games, but... Between the 4 games to include this, none of them have fixed the issues that came with the implementation. For example...

Walking over an item has a tendancy to cause damage to you, and then send the item flying in a random direction at mach-1. Another being how, if there is any kind of cluster of items close together, or sharing the same resting place, such as a multi-layered shelf, and any one of said items is picked up, or disturbed in any way, the entire batch of items seems to float up and get expelled out of place, ruining any careful decoration which might taken place there.

Now, in Morrowind, there is no physics engine beyond traveling projectiles and character movement. Items are rooted into place, and can never change position. So in Morrowind, if I find a cool unique item, I can feel 100% confident that I can take that item, drop it on this table, and no matter what, unless *I* pick it up, it will never move, never despawn, never change position. Infact, Morrowind has this awesome feature where, if you are in your inventory screen, you can take an item from it, and click on a surface in the world, and the item will be placed there, PINPOINT to where you clicked. Not only that, but using this method, you can stack suitable items on top of eachother. And in doing so, they won't slowly sink into eachother and get launched in a random direction. It just WORKS.

Now, obviously it's unreasonable to suggest that the physics engine be removed, but, it would be nice if at least they could fix some of these long standing issues like this in Fallout 4. Items being stable when placed, and not getting possessed every time something disturbs them. Or if you want to decorate your player's home with weapons/items you no longer use, but wish to keep around, they won't end up getting lost because the engine can't keep track of where you left them, thus sticking them in the wall, or somewhere outside of the game world to fall forever into the abyss of nothingness. Hell, even in Skyrim, with item racks, which take specific items and HOLDS them there, those don't even work properly in some cases. In Hearthfire, they added NPCs who's soul purpose (other than music) was to give back items that you had placed, but got lost in these same ways. Every time I play skyrim through again, I make sure to pick up EVERY SINGLE loose item in my home, and shove them all in a random container, just so I won't have to worry about then getting kicked across the room.

The new buidling system in Fallout 4 looks very promising, but I hope they at least think about this kind of thing this time around. It's been this way for a DECADE of their game releases. And while it's not a big huge gameplay thing, it is still relevant for people who want to roleplay themselves into the game a little. Take Fallout New Vegas for example. Towards the mid-end game, you're not going to use the Ratslayer anymore for any practical reasons, but it's a badass little rifle that you got good mileage out of, so it would be nice to be able to hang it on the wall, or set it on a table somewhere without worrying it'll just be GONE one day because physics.

Am I the only one thinking about this? It seems like such a small thing to complain about, but it really has gone unaddressed for a decade, which is a little crazy to think about.

[Incunabulum]

Originally posted by Nirvash:

So, Bethesda games post-morrowind have had this thing, where everything works from the physics engine. This is of course normal in modern games,

This is actually exceedingly rare in modern games outside implementing it for combat effects.

TW3, for example, has pretty much nothing you can manipulate directly - its all straight into the inventory or its a fixed static. Same with DA:I.

Bethesda is one of the rare companies that make most of the set props moveable.


But, to answer your question - most likely not.

BUT . . . there will be one or more third party mods that will come out pretty quickly that will allow you fine control over placing objects. Mods of that sort are available for Oblivion/FO3/FNV/Skyrim.

And if stuff in your Skyrim playthroughs is getting kicked around constantly its likely because you're running the game significantly above 60FPS.

[Nirvash]

Originally posted by Incunabulum:

And if stuff in your Skyrim playthroughs is getting kicked around constantly its likely because you're running the game significantly above 60FPS.

So you're saying if I capped at 60 fps, then if I were to say, take a piece of cheese off of a table, then all of the dishes, silverware, and other food items would stay put, and not randomly float around?

[Incunabulum]

Originally posted by Nirvash:

Originally posted by Incunabulum:

And if stuff in your Skyrim playthroughs is getting kicked around constantly its likely because you're running the game significantly above 60FPS.

So you're saying if I capped at 60 fps, then if I were to say, take a piece of cheese off of a table, then all of the dishes, silverware, and other food items would stay put, and not randomly float around?

Pretty much.

It ain't perfect - you'll still knock stuff off most likely. And it won't fix things like trying to put down a bottle to find the heaviest part of the bottle is *on the top*.

[Nirvash]

Originally posted by Incunabulum:

Originally posted by Nirvash:

So you're saying if I capped at 60 fps, then if I were to say, take a piece of cheese off of a table, then all of the dishes, silverware, and other food items would stay put, and not randomly float around?

Pretty much.

It ain't perfect - you'll still knock stuff off most likely. And it won't fix things like trying to put down a bottle to find the heaviest part of the bottle is *on the top*.

Well, I've never heard of physics working based on frame rate, but if that is the case, then that's something they should fix in Fallout 4. In addition, "It ain't perfect". They should make better strides to make it closer to perfect. As consistent as it's been the past few games, it seems like if they could just fix it once, then it should stay fixed in future uses of the engine.

[Gringovich]

During the E3 showcase, Bethesda said that they had more than a thousand items in the game including junk and decorative items. They want to see people collect and create cool displays in their bases, so I would hope they put effort into making the mechanics easier for those people.

[ostar]

Originally posted by Incunabulum:

Originally posted by Nirvash:

So you're saying if I capped at 60 fps, then if I were to say, take a piece of cheese off of a table, then all of the dishes, silverware, and other food items would stay put, and not randomly float around?

Pretty much.

Very untrue.

Even with vsync and fps capped at 60 or whatever, it still happens on the reg.

[leadmecca]

I still have rooms regularly explode in a veritable orgasm of joy. It's the little things like that that bring enjoyment to my life.

[Nirvash]

Originally posted by ostar:

Originally posted by Incunabulum:

Pretty much.

Very untrue.

Even with vsync and fps capped at 60 or whatever, it still happens on the reg.

I thought so. It happens even on consoles which are capped at 30 to 60. Makes no difference.

Originally posted by leadmecca:

I still have rooms regularly explode in a veritable orgasm of joy. It's the little things like that that bring enjoyment to my life.

Items would still be effected by force, such as explosions or being shot or whatever. Just the random poltergeist effect when you so much as breathe on something is what needs to go.

[Incunabulum]

Well, *I've* never seen ♥♥♥♥ go flying when I open a door and keep the game capped at 60 FPS. It will go flying when I jump on a table and start sexy dancing though.

Its a well know aspect of the engine - the physics engine in Skyrim is tied to frame rate and goes bonkers as you move above 60FPS. Even the starting cart ride can go haywire.

Yes, they *should* not do this - but Bethesda develops these games for *consoles*, not PC's. Been doing this since Oblivion. They've been expecting 30FPS and all the tricks and optimizations are to hit that target without regard to how those things might effect PC players.

*Maybe* its changed with FO4 as part of the improvements to CK that they've done.

http://i.imgur.com/Pik1lbr.jpg

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrim/comments/2ndghb/ladies_and_gentlemen_i_present_you_skyrim_at/

[Michel deFarmer]

I want a new feature to the item physics - actually throwing the items.
And have guards tell you to stop throwing things on them,and then promptly throw an item at them again.

[Geeves]

It's all about how tight the detection mesh around the objects are. You could in theory have an absolutely perfect mesh, but the calculations your cpu would have to perform to keep track of that in the game would be ABSOLUTELY INSANE. There is no desktop PC in existance that could handle something like that in real time.

The reason items dance around when moved is due to the above. The meshes are not perfect and are intersecting each other and the environment when placed in the editor. The calculations for those meshes are not performed until you interact with that object, or any objects nearby. Once that happens, it calculates the mesh, realizes they intersect, and moves the objects appropriately.

So, until someone builds a useful quantum computer, what you see in Skyrim is just what you are going to have to deal with. It may get better/more efficient, but it is not going to go away. It is not a programming bug, it is a programming necessity to allow you to actually run the game.

[Cryonaut Lex]

Originally posted by -FF- Michel deFarmer:

I want a new feature to the item physics - actually throwing the items.
And have guards tell you to stop throwing things on them,and then promptly throw an item at them again.

There is a spellbook that teaches telekinesis. You'd have to drop the item first, but then you could throw it. You can do this multiple times if you have the magicka reserves.

[Cryonaut Lex]

It would be nice to selectively turn off physics for an object, thus treating it like a barrel or piece of furrniture.

[Incunabulum]

Originally posted by Meatbag:

This is of course normal in modern games,

That's actually pretty uncommon in modern games and I don't know of any others that do it to the extent BGS does.

TW3, for example, has pretty much no moveable objects - everything is a static. Same for GTA and FC - beyond the stuff placed there specifically to be messed with the set dressing stuff is all static.

[Cyan]

In FO4 you can kind of pinpoint. You have to drop the item on the floor and move it while being in the settlement interface. But items still fall through shelves and tables so...