Big Guns too weak

[DragonBR]

Anyone else is disappoited with the Minigun and Gatling Laser, those guns in Fallout 3 was powerful, in Fallout 4 is too weak, i spent more than 500 rounds to kill a simple raider, with my submachine it takes only 3-5 shoots.
And, the Gatling Laser uses fusion cores, and if you reload it b4 the ammo finish, your inventary gets full of fusion cores, ok they do not weight anthing, but, annoying!

[Kalypso]

Publicado originalmente por ImHelping:

My politics free reason I favor the BoS anyways is because the Railroad is a horrible joke, and the institute is less annoying to have angry at me.
"Wow, look at all of these missions where there are dozens of dead railroad agents because they can't even handle raiders... But maybe I was being unkind to the combat value of the Railroad-"
*Mama murphy annihilates Deacon, with the sawed off shotgun I gave her as a joke, before I even realize his 'revenge for siding with someone else' event was happening*
"But I guess I will never know for sure."

I like the Railroad. It's a fun concept, and the faction i side with the most due to perfering sneak in this game. Tinker Tom always sells a silenced Hunting Rifle regardless of your level, but it's mad expensive for a low level. My current playthrough is not sneak though. Tanky mf with Heavy Weapons, Rifles, and Melee skills.

[ImHelping]

Railroad would have been better off without "We need you to have mutually exclusive paths because... reasons." and if they were ever shown to be competent instead of "Underdogs you sympathize with means useless unless they are the main plot route, right?"

Still, the more years go by, as much as I will still joke about the bugs and writing in fallout 4. The more I also realize sometimes bad writing still isn't as bad as the Nth person thinking "Maybe murderhobo slavers have a point? This proves I hate fascism." about New Vegas.

At least siding with the institute is FUNNY if you care about long term fallout lore. "I have decided to join the guys experimenting with FEV. Don't worry about the fact only villains in Fallout do that. It is totally fine."

[B Maverick]

Level up your big guns Perk and it will get a lot better.

[Xenon The Noble]

Full autos use too much expensive ammo. I never could afford it before I learned water farming.

[Kalypso]

Publicado originalmente por Xenon The Noble:

Full autos use too much expensive ammo. I never could afford it before I learned water farming.

Long as you are doing quests and picking up gear, you should be fine. I was able to keep the first plasma rifle I found stocked until lvl 41 where I found an Explosive Radium Rifle, never had enough for Kiloton as i was constantly buying Plasma ammo, and I had already maxed Science, Nuclear Physicist, Demolition Expert, and Gun Nut. So I knew what i had to use. I still have my Deadeye maxed out Plasma Rifle on a gun rack in my bunker.

[ImHelping]

Publicado originalmente por Xenon The Noble:

Full autos use too much expensive ammo. I never could afford it before I learned water farming.

Not quite big guns related, but I imagine steady aim probably helps a lot with the non-damage issues.

With my re-learning everything I already knew. I am getting reminded how the first rank of steady aim brings even your pipe auto to "oh, huh. the crosshair doesn't even move when firing anymore" territory. And makes the 10mm on auto mode also a hell of a lot tighter. just a whole lot of "No longer entirely reliant on ADS or vats to hit a bloat flywith an uzi" Letting me land more valuable 10mm ammo hits when I am out of AP, because scavenger loves to give me random minigun ammo more than it does 10mm!

(If the wikis these days are right, commando's hipfire bonus is weak trash 10-20% by rank 3. anyways. while Steady aim is 20/40.)

I would imagine the "I can't find any numbers for it" hipfire bonus on the heavy weapons perk, also suffers similar trash tier bonuses like commando's.

Still, seven strength is a LOT for any traditional non heavy/melee build. More so if you still want Science. But ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ what a difference.

Pipe auto is also pest control MVP in hindsight, due to "Everyone who says weapons are trash compared to New Vegas turns around to defend Fo4 when I say it!" SMG in fallout 4 being an absolute joke.

The best piercing auto on a pipe gun using .38 so plentiful you will still have over 1,000 using it regularly, is EXACTLY as strong per round as a normal Sub Machinegun using .45. And the tommy gun still only fires three bullets per vats shot. oops. no wonder people try to derail all SMG chat with named and legendary variants.

Plus you can build it into a one handed UZI to spam in vats, and two pipe autos weigh less than one submachinegun.

Assault rifle which I ignored for ages due to common whining of "Eeeeew mommy does not look like new vegas!" with a side of "My spreadsheet I wrote in crayon claims it is worse damage per round than my combat rifle anyways!" is also, very, very good.

For normal out of VATS gunplay. Because it works like an actual "real gun" by not needing to be captain america to shoot where you are aiming. Shame it demands gun nut 4 to see the most from your investment in it. But it really can make a difference, even on a semi-auto rifleman build where on paper it is worse than sticking with the combat rifle.

[DouglasGrave]

Publicado originalmente por ImHelping:

Publicado originalmente por Xenon The Noble:

Full autos use too much expensive ammo. I never could afford it before I learned water farming.

Not quite big guns related, but I imagine steady aim probably helps a lot with the non-damage issues.

With my re-learning everything I already knew. I am getting reminded how the first rank of steady aim brings even your pipe auto to "oh, huh. the crosshair doesn't even move when firing anymore" territory. And makes the 10mm on auto mode also a hell of a lot tighter. just a whole lot of "No longer entirely reliant on ADS or vats to hit a bloat flywith an uzi"

(If the wikis these days are right, commando's hipfire bonus is weak trash 10-20% by rank 3. anyways. while Steady aim is 20/40.)

I would imagine the "I can't find any numbers for it" hipfire bonus on the heavy weapons perk, also suffers similar trash tier bonuses like commando's.

Still, seven strength is a LOT for any traditional non heavy/melee build. More so if you still want Science. But ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ what a difference.

Looking in the Creation Kit, both Commando and Heavy Gunner do offer basically the same hipfire adjustment for their respective weapon types:

• Rank 2: Mod Cone-of-fire Mult, Multiply Value, 0.90
  
• Rank 3: Mod Cone-of-fire Mult, Multiply Value, 0.80

While Steady Aim gives double that:

• Rank 2: Mod Cone-of-fire Mult, Multiply Value, 0.80
  
• Rank 3: Mod Cone-of-fire Mult, Multiply Value, 0.60

And applies to anything except weapons with the WeaponTypeShotgun keyword (i.e. shotguns, both double barrel and combat).

Which seems fair, since Commando and Heavy Gunner also give hefty damage bonuses, while steadying aim is all that Steady Aim does.

[ImHelping]

This probably ties back into "Is it me or is minigun real bad in fallout 4?" because for example, the mid tier barrel causes twice the hipfire penalty as the default barrel. By the time you have gun nut 4 instead of 3, you have (understandably) probably stopped trying with the 5mm bullets minigun and claims of "But once you have a postgame god build-" are cold comfort.

I wonder if the smaller AP penalty on the second barrel is ever enough to help people use it in VATS regularly?

[DouglasGrave]

Publicado originalmente por ImHelping:

This probably ties back into "Is it me or is minigun real bad in fallout 4?" because for example, the mid tier barrel causes twice the hipfire penalty as the default and final barrel.

It's also going to fall behind explosive heavy weapons like the missile launcher and fat man because Heavy Gunner gives a bonus to both heavy weapon damage and explosive damage. Non-explosive heavy weapons miss out on the explosive chunk of the perk's damage boost.

Which would be at least part of why a minigun goes from bad to wonderful with the Explosive legendary effect. Now that it has an explosive element, it's getting both parts of Heavy Gunner's damage boost. And that boosted explosive damage from Heavy Gunner is something you don't get from Commando for automatic pistols or rifles.

The gatling laser misses out due to not having the ballistic keyword required for Explosive, as does the flamer. The Far Harbour DLC's harpoon gun (which is ballistic) at least has mod parts to fire a shotgun-style spray even if it doesn't have the minigun's firing rate.

[ImHelping]

I can't feel guilty over "missile launcher double dips!" because every time I do, I come across a reminder listing claiming "Missile launcher is only as strong as a hand grenade by default" and welp.

Plus, you know. That is still ten levels worth of perks ranks to max both. Not like they didn't pay for it.

The more years go by, the more I feel "No, the real problem is the lackluster thing. Not the one everyone likes because it actually WORKS."

Granted, I have also seen survival games that start you with recharging fabricators where the food that gets nerfed is plot location unlocked tree fruit that makes you puke blood before you can fill half a hunger meter in one sitting. because... you didn't need a crafting menu to eat the basically poison fruit. People seem real strange about perceived convenience and sunk cost vs actual convenience.

[DouglasGrave]

Publicado originalmente por ImHelping:

I can't feel guilty over "missile launcher double dips!" because every time I do, I come across a reminder listing claiming "Missile launcher is only as strong as a hand grenade by default" and welp.

Plus, you know. That is still ten levels worth of perks ranks. Not like they didn't pay for it.

It's the flamer I feel bad for, because it doesn't even have a nice strong legendary option. The only thing it has going for it is that its ammunition is cheap.

[ImHelping]

Publicado originalmente por DouglasGrave:

Publicado originalmente por ImHelping:

I can't feel guilty over "missile launcher double dips!" because every time I do, I come across a reminder listing claiming "Missile launcher is only as strong as a hand grenade by default" and welp.

Plus, you know. That is still ten levels worth of perks ranks. Not like they didn't pay for it.

It's the flamer I feel bad for, because it doesn't even have a nice strong legendary option. The only thing it has going for it is that its ammunition is cheap.

Videogame math is so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ strange, yeah. This sorta reminds me how the Plasma gun flamethrower option is absolute trash in VATS even though it annihilates things in realtime.

[ghpstage]

After DR a miniguns DPS with it's standard barrel is pretty much identical to that of a basic automatic 10mm pistol, and the tri-barrel DPS is near identical to both of these too....
With an accelerated barrel the minigun is only 10% ahead of a powerful automatic pipe gun, and falls behind a hardened automatic 10mm pistol.

Granted this is calculated in a simplistic way, involving no more than DR adjusted DAM multiplied by the RoF... but with that alone you can see how bad the minigun stats are.

Poor stats along with weight, clumsy mechanics, rare ammo, lack of suppressors and a myriad of bugs plague heavy weapons in general. The only big gun that can really hold it's own when compared to other class weapons is the gatling laser, and even that has issues.

Publicado originalmente por ImHelping:

This sorta reminds me how the Plasma gun flamethrower option is absolute trash in VATS even though it annihilates things in realtime.

'Flamer' style weapons all suffer from an odd bug in VATS. No matter how many shots you queue up only the first round counts, both for proper damage and ammo consumption despite the animations playing. The false shots that follow do apply the DoT and charge crits though IIRC.

[wefuntw]

problem with minigun : too low damage , no armor piercing mod. Even "automatic armor piercing pipe rifle" is much better than minigun....

I think minigun should have base damage of 10 or 11, not just 8 .. 8 is ridiculously low, what weapon do 8 damage in fallout 4 ? fists? mole rats? am I shooting a BB gun?

Yeah some legendary minigun is powerful (plasma, explosive..) , but again, any other legendary automatic weapon is even more powerful than legendary minigun.

[DouglasGrave]

Publicado originalmente por wefuntw:

Yeah some legendary minigun is powerful (plasma, explosive..) , but again, any other legendary automatic weapon is even more powerful than legendary minigun.

Other legendary automatics have better base damage, but when it comes to the Explosive legendary effect in particular, the explosive damage it adds to the minigun is potentially higher than on other automatics thanks to the Heavy Gunner perk.

Unlike the Commando perk (which applies to non-heavy automatics), the Heavy Gunner perk boosts both regular damage with heavy weapons and explosive damage with heavy weapons. As the only heavy weapon with a high fire rate that qualifies for Explosive, that gives the Explosive minigun a special advantage,