+SPOILERS+ The lore is broken beyond repair, now.

[mithraP]

Did Mister Emil Pagliarulo (Fallout 4's lead writer) actually play any previous Fallout game?
I've come to think that the answer is no. Or maybe he did, and didn't take them into account.

Listen, Fallout 4 is pretty much a good game. Ambitious, great atmosphere, pleasant gameplay, nice graphics, big map, etc, etc. I've had good times playing it, great times, even. The exploration is nice, some mods truly add something, the crafting system is well done etc. There are a few problems, sure, like for any other game... But there is a major flaw that cannot be skipped and that makes me wonder about the seriousness of the studio's writing team.

We already know the weaknesses of the main storyline and how it falls flat in its core elements (no choice at all, no consequences and forced, awkward emotion moments that didn't work well). Writers are supposed to be familiar with storytelling structures that can avoid these kinds of immersion breaking moments. I'd suggest to read "hero's journey" by Vogler, the various studies from Joseph Campbell or "Story" by Robert Mckee. But beyond the storytelling, we should be worried about the lore breaking elements.

Now, what is lore ? (baby don't hurt me) it's a series of facts, an established timeline, a recurring theme and a story structure introduced by the first game. Adding things to them is fine, it's actually what we wish a new episode has. But removing, ignoring or changing these core elements is what makes a lore breaking moment.

---
1 : The Institute is made of the greatest minds of the wasteland. The future of mankind, where the greatest scientific discoveries are made.
Contradiction with : the whole franchise

Except for synths, the Institute hasn't invented or improved anything. Most of their "discoveries" have been around for two entire centuries, and the Institute didn't even improve them in any way.

-About the energy. The Institute's greatest accomplishment is a 1942 technology : a nuclear reactor. They don't believe in fusion energy, you know... the energy that powers the vaults.
-They say that their motto is « humanity redifined ». West Tek made it two centuries before with embedding DNA with FEV, allowing mutation and evolution to happen way, way faster. Even the master's scientists debunked this idea, because humans WERE evolving ultra fast to match the fauna and flora that West Tek infected.
-A synthetic army ? Assaultrons and Securitrons are way deadlier than any of the Institute's synths and they were made by an Institute's student 200 years ago. A faction with zero military advancement in two centuries isn't exactly threatening or believable.
-Cyborgs ? A century old technology, mastered by a secluded religious order with far less resources, in California. It was working perfectly well. Improved lifespan, made people stronger, smarter etc. Shaun cancelled this program for no reason.
-Synths ? Yes, it's quite a feat, except that the Institute fails to recognize their obvious sentience, while at the big MT, their great minds acknowledged sentience in synthetic organisms a long, long time ago.
-Teleportation ? Pretty cool, except that big MT discovered this technology long before the institute and it worked way, way better.
-Weapons ? Which are worse than laser weapons invented two centuries before them.
-Agriculture ? Food replicators were invented two centuries before the events of the game, as per the GECK. And they were powered by portable cold fusion reactors, a technology our real life scientists only dream of while the Institute has trouble paying its energy bills.
-Bioscience ? Zero advancement, while the Shis in San Francisco actually made a plant that eats radiation and scrubs the land to make it livable. They can make synthetic oil out of seaweed and are on the verge of building their own nuclear reactors, plus their own power armors, their own gauss rifles etc. And they had way, way less resources than the Institute.
-Medecine ? Zero progress. They get outsmarted by a mark I Mrs.Nanny whose design was already half a century old by the time the bombs fell. They have a litteral cure for cancer in their vats and don't even think about refining it when their own leader gets sick.
-Oh, the institute can cure Super Mutants. Great. West Tek already knew how to make the same cure back in 2077. In Fallout 1, Zax even says that anyone who keeps a sample of their original DNA can be turned back into a human. In other words, the institute took two centuries to discover something that West Tek figured out in one single year.
-The Institute even gets outsmarted by one of their own fellow student, Mr.House, who managed to achieve immortality by himself, with makeshift technology. A technology he intends to sell to the NCR, with whom he makes business.
-Artificial Intelligence ? Invented and sold to the military two centuries ago, as proven by Skynet in the Sierra Army Depot.


2 : Jet is presented as a pre-war drug, shipped to vault 95 before it was sealed.
Contradiction with : Fallout 2.
In F2, you get to meet Myron, who created the Jet almost two centuries after the apocalypse. He clearly states how he made it (with Brahmin's excrements), how many slaves died during the tests, who ordered the drugs (The Mordinos) and why (to seize control of Redding).
"He could have lied, or he could have been inspired by an old drug", would you say. True indeed. However, every chemist is inspired by old drugs at some point. Doesn't mean that the creations share this nature. Also, Myron was a chemist genius, able to build chems at will, and never lied to the player about it. Confronted with his skills or the recipes of chems, you never see him talking nonsense, he actually proves that he has a great knowledge on the production process. "Derivatives of lysergics acid diethylamide and psilocybin" is an actual line from Myron, if your science skill is high enough to talk about chemistry with him.
The boy was also begging you to spare him when you first met him. So he was a coward. So can you imagine him lying to Big Jesus Mordino's face ? Remember how the man has a surprisingly good empathy and actually murders the player, a rough tribal wastelander, at the second he notices chit chat or insolence. Here, this is Myron we talk about. A skinny kid. Finally, the said kid killed between 100 and 200 slaves to get the jet "working". Now, let's do the math.

When you meet Metzger, the ruler of the slaver's guild, he sells Vic for 1000 dollars. An old, crippled, useless repairman. Not a young male tribal warrior in his prime, no, no.
Metzger buys Sulik for 1200 dollars, and pays each slaver 800 dollars for a run. Which means that a man like Sulik must be sold between 4000 and 5000 dollars for Metzger to make a profit. Now, look : the Mordinos, intelligent, drug knowing warlords who wouldn't spend a cap for nothing, bought 100 to 200 slaves so that Myron can kill them, and it's no big deal. Do you think that they would have spent such a fortune if Jet was actually a pre-war drug that any chemist could remake ? Remember how advanced was Myron's lab ?
No matter how you put it, Jet is not a pre war drug. Maybe it's inspired by pre war chems, but it's not one of them. And it couldn't possibly be an easy to make drug, as per the Mordinos' investments. It's not a big deal, but when you manage a huge franchise which was defined by its details, you can't just ignore the little things which make the whole hold together.

3 : Again, Super Mutants are all idiots (except for Virgil).
Contradiction with : Fallout 1, 2, tactics.
First of all, why are super mutants even agressive ? F1, F2, Ftactics' super mutants were agressive because they were brainwashed by the children of the cathedral to see humanity as the enemy. And yet, hundreds of them were already starting to see their errors and integrated themselves into society. FEV doesn't turn people into racists for no reason. Yeah, except Vault 87's for some reason, but F4's super mutants aren't from there.
Is there even a reason for them being so aggressive and not simply try to form a society, like all the super mutants who weren't brainwashed ?

Now, about their intelligence. FEV Doesn't turn humans into imbeciles. Most Super Mutants are actually very smart ; we know for a fact that Broken Hills is populated by hundreds of them (as per the Vault City's guide for travellers, which has the place's demographics), and they are smart enough to sign peace treaties, sign business deals, understand the interest of hiring private companies for their supplies, write down laws and obey them, run a successful mine etc. The lieutenant (just a lieutenant, not a high ranked officer) is actually one of the most eloquent NPC of the entire franchise.
Even the super mutants warriors of the midwest are actually smart. Brutal, yes, but smart enough to actually enroll in various BoS tactical squads.

The only dumb ones we ever see are door watchers. They are not core of the Unity's army, they are left behind to watch doors in secluded cities.

Some would say "hey ! Wasn't Fallout 1's main quest revolving around the fact that the Master couldn't raise smart mutants ?"
Nope. It's a myth. Check again, the master NEVER even mentions the mutant's intelligence, since he already has hundreds and hundreds of smart mutants in his army. He wants the vault dwellers for a totally different reason. He knows what happens with pure DNA, since he already made an experiment with a vault 13 citizen before the events of Fallout 1.

It makes a creature like himself. Which is all he wants : unity.
There's zero mention of mutant's intelligence, since their intelligence has never been a problem.

What about the Institute's ? They are all dumbs because FEV.
What about Vault 87's ? They are all dumbs because FEV.

I say this again : the FEV doesn't affect intelligence. At all.

4 : The base money is caps.
Contradiction with : Fallout 2.
Caps were only used during the first years after the war, as "farmer's money", as a currency indexed on the water value : one cap = one bottle of water.
Yeah, yeah, I know, caps were on the west coast, Fallout 4 takes place in the east coast, things can be different etc. I know, bear with me :

Diamond City is a trading hub, which means that there are caravans stopping by. Caravans from places where there are other currencies (their diversity is quite well established in all the previous titles) These caravaneers' employers want their share on the transactions, for obvious reasons. And by share, I don't mean barter of goods, I mean cash. Money. So, for Diamond City to actually exist as a city, there needs to be an exchange currency, aka, a bank. Baseball cards, game tickets, printed money... PRINTED money ? Now, that would give Piper way more importance, given the fact that she holds the printing machine. Her conflict with the mayor would have another dimension, as we'd witness not only a clash of convictions, but of pure, raw, political power. The game actually tries to take that direction, but falls flat on it. And here's a perfect example of a current, ingame dramatic situation that would have been greatly enhanced by a more serious approach on the established lore. Realism wouldn't change the current setting and drama, it would actually enhance it.

« No, no, you can't touch caps, they are a part to Fallout's identity » some might say. Wrong. Fallout 1 may had caps, but Fallout 2 had NCR Dollars backed on Redding's gold, issued by the Republic Reserve located in Angel's Boneyard. Mining communities use mine scrips. The Mojave accepts another currency, the Sunset Sasparilla caps. The whole midwest tribes uses ring pulls and Brotherhood printed scrips. The Legion's turf, which is insanely huge, uses Denarius and Aureus.

How exactly does it make sense for the east coast to use a Californian money abandonned since almost a century, and was backed by water in an arid environment, especially considering that there are six other kind of currencies between the HUB and the Commonwealth ? Considering that there is water EVERYWHERE in the commonwealth, and yet, caps have the exact same value as thousands of miles away, where it was used in an arid, desertic setting a century ago. Now, how long after the black plague did the European banks started to make loans and make money, again ?

Fallout's lore established a realistic economy, as part of its main thematic : "how do new societies deal with the errors of the past ?" removing any part of that, even for fun, nostalgia or fanservice, is removing a part of the central thematic. In other words, it's breaking the lore.
There are numerous ways to keep the lore up and kicking, yet still inventing new, original concepts. Among them, let's imagine... I don't know, let's imagine that the BoS wishes to extend his power through political and economical management. They'd basically turn into medieval templars (the bank templars, not the assassin's creed gymnasts), which would be as lore friendly as original. After all, they control the water purifier, and for many years, the currency was indexed on the water prices. What if they tried to extend that currency to the commonwealth, and encounter a suspiciously lawless state, with a shadow government opposing this new foreign currency ? Wouldn't that be the first hint of the institute's motives ? Wouldn't this economical takeover be a way to enhance the actual, current arrival of the Prydwen ? When you know that the BoS not only comes for the institute, but also to implement their power in this new land, that's double the intimidation potential of the scene.

Listen, I'm a random idiot, not a writer. And here are already two basic ideas to justify an economical situation that would fit the lore and the current storyline. Any competent writer could find dozens of other, better scenarios. And as proven, realism and lore fidelity wouldn't require to rewrite the game from scratch. It can enhance the current storyline and setting, which is actually good and wouldn't need a lot of duct tape to actually hold still.

05 : The Californian Brotherhood of steel approved Maxson's rise to power.
Contradiction with : fallout bible, Fallout 2, Van Buren, Fallout New Vegas.
When Fallout 4 takes place, the Californian Brotherhood doesn't "exist" anymore. It has been annhilated, smashed, destroyed, and everything in between... NCR kicked them when they were down, just like John Wayne would have done. The BoS is currently making a last stand to defend Maxson's State underground, and are getting ready to face the invasion of the NCR force, that CANNOT lose at this point. Even the Mojave Chapter cannot get in touch with HQ, so how would the elders approve Maxson's rise to power ?

06 : The BOS blows up the Institute.
Contradiction with : all of Fallout's lore.
Now, let's imagine a medieval knight. Brotherhood soldiers are basically that, in sci fi.
Would a knight kill a heretic holding the Graal ? Sure.
So, the BOS would destroy the members of the institute and their synths.
But then, would the knight melt the Graal and pretend he did some good work ? Hell no!
So why would the BOS nuke their Graal, their cathedral, their biggest resource of technology (something that they actually worship and swear to PROTECT) ?
Just look at all the technology inside the Institute. Microscopes. Bulletproof glass. Speakers and security cameras. LED lights. Automated doors which suggests the presence of pneumatic or hydraulic engines. A functional nuclear reactor. Computers. Digging machines somewhere. Humidifiers. Carbon filters in the ventilation systems. Functional coffee machines. Thousands of energy cells used by the synths which would be VERY usefl for the brotherhood soldiers in constant needs of supplies. Ovens, microwaves, circuit boards, wielding machines, washing machines, industrial arms, UV lamps to grow food underground. Water purifiers. Whatever technology used to make synthetic food.

« The brotherhood doesn't care about post war technologies », you might say. Except that they totally are pre war technology. 75% of the institute's gizmoes exist in our real world, including the nuclear reactor. Also, nobody ever said that the Brotherhood only focuses on pre war technology. Ever. It's a common myth backed by litteraly nobody in the games. Sure, they MOSTLY hoard pre war tech in order to preserve it, but they never limited themselves to that. Every single Fallout title shows the brotherhood having interest in post war tech.

In Fallout 1, the brotherhood clearly uses weapons manufactured by the gun runners, such as the ripper. Doctor Lorri enhances soldiers with bionic implants, turning them into cyborgs, which are clearly post war technology.
In Fallout 2, the brotherhood asks you to find the blueprints of vertibirds so that they can make their own. Vertibirds are post war technology. The chapter also uses ACE, which is an artificial intelligence who became self aware after the war.
In Fallout tactics, Paladin Dos is a cyborg. Post war technology. Several endings of Fallout tactics feature the brotherhood relying on an self aware AI to establish themselves in the midwest. These endings are noncanonical, sure, but still.
In Fallout 3, the Citadel's terminals mention the lead scribe building a post war technology called an « Accelerated Vector Fusion module » to take control of Liberty Prime's artificial intelligence.
In Fallout 4, the Prydwen itself is a post war technology and it serves as the brotherhood HQ. And Proctor Ingram uses bionic implants to cope with the loss of her legs.
Remind me again : what use do the BOS scribes have ? Studying the ashes left behind by the paladins ? Fallout 4's writer seems to think that the answer is yes.

07 : There's the Enclave armor in the wild, untouched for centuries and rusty :
Contradiction with : Fallout 2
The Enclave Armor was developped by the Enclave on the Poseidon Oil Rig AFTER the war and would have NEVER found its way in this basement. Ever. Also... Is that rust on it ? But... But the X-01 is made of advanced polywers and not of METAL, which makes it lighter than its counterparts.

08 : A ghoul stays locked in a fridge for two centuries, without food or water.
Contradiction with : every fallout.
If radiation is all it takes to keep a Ghoul kicking, then why did Necropolis Ghouls died of thirst if you took their water chip, in Fallout 1 ? This is a major, important plot element of the story, since it defines the hero's journey as morally grey, as communities are ruined to save vault 13.
Why do Harland in New Vegas clearly states that he had to eat radroaches and drink water from the condensation on the pipes not to die of hunger and thirst ?
Why do Slog Ghouls even grow food ? For money ? Come on. They are so broke they can't even pay attention.

09 : Ghouls can run/charge.
Contradiction with : Fallout 1 and 2.
In Fallout's lore, there are three « races » of Ghouls : Crazies, Scavengers and Mindless Ones. The only ones who went feral were the Mindless Ones or "Zombies" and they were frail, they were few, slow, they were weak and the only place I remember ever seeing them was around Necropolis. I don't even remember seeing any in Fallout 2. Why's that? Cause they've long since died off. Why? Darwinism, that's why. Survival of the fittest. And they disappeared while being protected by the crazies and scavengers, because they knew they needed protection and couldn't survive on their own longer than a single generation.

A single charge, and they'd break their legs. For how long would they be crippled ? All their life. So, logically, they don't run. It's actually a pretty important plot element in Fallout 2, as demonstrated by Lenny.

He, a medic ghoul (not a redneck zombie but an educated doctor) clearly states that Ghouls can't run. This is actually why he feels so sorry for himself and joins Fallout 2's hero, as an atonement act : he couldn't run after the hero's ancestor and help him with his quest. FO1 and 2 made a big deal of showing that Ghouls are easily scared by danger and stay away from trouble because of their fragility... they have advanced atrophy and a skeletal structure that is quite bad at even holding things in place - as we learn from the dialogue in FO2 talking with Harold, and in Fallout Tactics dialogs with the Ghouls who seek the protection of the Midwest Brotherhood of Steel. The bravest Ghouls actually enlist in the brotherhood ranks, but their agility is limited to six points and they can't run. They can only do an awkward, twisted trot.

In Fallout 4, Ferals are rotting corpses who have survived 200 years in a hostile/racist environment, without any protection, some of them without even eating anything, and they are able to run faster than humans, LITTERALY avoid bullets, charge and inflict massive damages. You can see the problem here.

10 : There are super mutants at Boston.
Contradiction with : all fallouts.
Fallout 1 ends with the destruction of the FEV base, which was used to create mutants... And let me tell this again : pure, raw FEV doesn't produce super mutants, but monsters like Harold or the master. To engineer Super Mutants, the greatest mind of the wasteland had to grow psychic powers, unite itself with a computer and spend years of failures before even making his first super mutant. The destruction of his labs mean only one thing : that this knowledge is lost, possibly forever. There isn't a single plausible, lore-friendly scenario that explains how dumby dumb super mutants could create new soldiers on their own.
Fallout 2, which happens many decades after, actually confirms that the super mutants are almost all dead.
Fallout Tactics sees the midwest brotherhood stop the lat Super Mutants wave pretty easily. Depending on the ending, they end up enlisting for the Brotherhood of steel or exterminated in camps.
Fallout 3 ends with the Brotherhood seizing Washington D.C., Liberty Prime, Enclave technology and choppers. If there are still super mutants in the perimeter six months after that (logically, there shouldn't have been any in the first place, but well), then it would mean that the Brotherhood has officially retreated from the east coast. Which it hasn't.

11 : Robots have personnalities.
Contradiction with : all fallout games.
Speaking about Codsworth, why does he has a conscience ?
Listen, I love codsworth just as the next guy. He's a really cool character, probably one of my favorite. I wouldn't mind if he was a broken toaster randomly blattering nonsense and movie quotes like he did in the pre war intro. But it's one thing to have a personable toaster. It's a different matter all together when my toaster starts to pass moral judgements, like when Codsworth « Likes » or « dislikes » my actions or start crying about his boredom, developping loyalty towards Paladin Danse or expressing grief for my family. Or even straight up hating me.

Listen, he's a prewar domestic robot, made available to the middle class. He's not exactly the definition of an advanced, military AI, right ?
Well, that's a shame, because military Ais are the only ones who developped a personality, in Fallout's history, and this process only took place years AFTER the war. And let's look at them : they're huge. We are talking about a building sized terminal using a ridiculously powerful CPU to even function. If an IA needs to move, it needs a human brain to do so. A human brain. You know, a CPU so powerful that even our own engineers cannot even imagine a computer that would come close to it.

These intelligent machines are ZAX 1.2, a huge computer located in the glow who plays chess with himself. There is Skynet in the Sierra Army Depot, whose personality is very cold and limited. There are the robobrains and the Think Tank variants, who use human brains to feel emotions. And there's John Henry Eden in Fallout 3. And that's it. These are the only machines with a personality in the entire Fallout universe. Even the calculator, which is the most advanced robot of the whole pre war era, has the mind of an excel sheet.

And yet, a domestic, cheap robot, has developped WAY more sentience and personality than anyone of these artificial intelligences. Does Codsworth use a human brain ? No. Does his CPU has the size of a building ? No. Does his OS is as advanced as a military IA ? No. Then how has he become sentient enough to developp a moral compass and emotions ?

« Eyebots » were sentient too, you may say. Remember how Ed-E showed grief in Lonesome Road everytime you mention its creator. True enough. And true, eyebots were indeed a pre-war invention.
But Ed-E was a post-war prototype, which, unlike its little floating comrades, was built using transistors, a technology that didn't exist when Codsworth was made, and the very POST WAR engineers were ASTONISHED at Ed-E having a personality. Which means that even the greatest minds of the post war Enclave viewed an intelligent robot as something rare, extraordinary and unexpected. How to explain that, if a domestic, cheap butler was way more « sentient » than Ed-E before the war ?

[Gon]

Publicado originalmente por mithraP:

You have no evidence of that. We don't know when their experiments started and what was their scale at this time. As such, Tactics doesn't rewrite anything, it bases his setting on an existing, yet chronogically undefined lore.

Sure I do - The Deathclaws were modified with FEV. The Enclave didn't get their mitts on FEV till 2237, long after the Mid-West Brotherhood upped sticks and moved to Chicago.

Publicado originalmente por mithraP:

So, if I buy the rights of Dune and release "the expendables in space" in which the spice is reduced to a cosmetic accessory, I can say "I am the owner. I have spoken." and not expect my target audience to react ?

... You've read the new Dune books. I can tell. You can do exactly as you please with the IP, and whilst people are free to complain about it, your word would be (heh!) law. You can either adjust to the fact that Tactics is only semi-canon and work from there, or cry out into the night with no-one to hear you.

Publicado originalmente por mithraP:

Publicado originalmente por Gon:

Large amounts of high tech military materiel was present on site to salvage (Though at the time of F1, a suit of Power Armour was rejected for an unsightly bit of solder on the helmet, so they obviously had no interest in pre-used goods)

Exactly. They know what they can find, inside, and it's nothing they don't already know, value and protect. It's not valuable. It's not rare. It's nothing they couldn't possibly find in any other military base, where it's not held by a geopolitical force. The only "originality" is the FEV, and that's clearly not their philosophy. Listen to them talking about the mutants, in all games : they hate mutations. Hard to believe that they'd endorse their very cause, especially when their own founder rebelled because of it.

We'll have to agree to disagree again. You think they'd leave it alone. I think they'd at least ensure that the centre of Super Mutant production, and second most important structure (or arguably most important) in The Master's new kingdom is fully out of commision. (Personally I write it up as a plot hole caused by poor writing).

[mithraP]

Publicado originalmente por Gon:

Sure I do - The Deathclaws were modified with FEV. The Enclave didn't get their mitts on FEV till 2237, long after the Mid-West Brotherhood upped sticks and moved to Chicago.

This is what produced the Vault 13's intelligent deathclaws, sure. But we also know that the pre war government (logically tied with the upcoming Enclave) was already experimenting FEV experiments on Deathclaws years before the great war, to create intelligent, sentient soldiers for the conflict with China. Could have succeeded, for all we know.
So, sure, the Enclave had to search for the vats of FEV to push forward their own experiments. But as for the previous ones ? We encounter ferals in F1, sure, but we really don't know if these are the only result of these little science projects. There could be others. Tactics' deathclaws would be a lore friendly pre war result, and could even inspire the Enclave to push forward into this old, abandonned project a few years after.

Publicado originalmente por Gon:

You can either adjust to the fact that Tactics is only semi-canon and work from there, or cry out into the night with no-one to hear you.

Badly written ? Maybe. Took liberty with the lore ? Sure, but apart from the vault BoS thing (which is indeed a big problem, mind me), I can't see anything rewriting the existing lore.
And given the fact that its events are included in the official timeline, and mentionned in the game, there is no evidence for tactics to be only semi-canon, apart from Emil Pagliarulo's interview ; and as said, the man wrote Broken Steel and Anchorage. He is sure that Ghouls run and that Super Mutants could have invaded the capital a few months after the bombs, with the dozen of inconsistencies it implies. More like lore-unwise fanfiction than anything, if you ask me.

Publicado originalmente por Gon:

We'll have to agree to disagree again. You think they'd leave it alone. I think they'd at least ensure that the centre of Super Mutant production, and second most important structure (or arguably most important) in The Master's new kingdom is fully out of commision. (Personally I write it up as a plot hole caused by poor writing).

As I already said, we don't know what the BoS did with Mariposa after the vault dweller. Maybe they raided the place. Maybe they didn't. Maybe they didn't expect it to explode. Maybe they expected you to go in, go out and give them intel on the situation (didn't they sent you to the glow, thinking you'd die there, just before ?) so that they'd call reinforcements.
We don't know what the BoS did, after you. We just know that they actively took part in the hunting of the super mutants in the years that followed.

[vonVince]

It's broken and there's little to be done about it with Bethesda at helm when they can't maintain consistence without contradicting themselves.

[mithraP]

Publicado originalmente por Six of Saturn:

Agreed BOS Nuclear option made no sense. Hence why my Sentinel Ramsey character descended into drugs and alcohol.

Well, at least you've got a jetpack, now... And at this point of the story, you're a BoS paladin with zero responsabilities of duties, so I guess that's alright. I can't seem to remember, do these guys even make you swear loyalty to the BoS' creed and values ?
Although I really, really liked Proctor Ingram's character. Coherent, pretty well written and believable character, in my opinion. I liked Ronnie Shaw too. Too bad these were replaced by action man Danse and fisheyes Garvey as companions. Waste of immersive storytelling potential, but here that's simply an opinion, not a point on the lore or anything.

[Six of Saturn]

Publicado originalmente por mithraP:

Publicado originalmente por Six of Saturn:

Agreed BOS Nuclear option made no sense. Hence why my Sentinel Ramsey character descended into drugs and alcohol.

Well, at least you've got a jetpack, now... And at this point of the story, you're a BoS paladin with zero responsabilities of duties, so I guess that's alright. I can't seem to remember, do these guys even make you swear loyalty to the BoS' creed and values ?
Although I really, really liked Proctor Ingram's character. Coherent, pretty well written and believable character, in my opinion. I liked Ronnie Shaw too. Too bad these were replaced by action man Danse and fisheyes Garvey as companions. Waste of immersive storytelling potential, but here that's simply an opinion, not a point on the lore or anything.

You are not just a Paladin but a Sentinel, second highest rank in the BOS under Elder with no responsibilities. :P. Agreed about Ingram and Shaw they were classic fallout style characters. I may go back to my BOS playthrough in the future.

For now however My Institute playthrough just feels right. This Commonwealth deserves no less than X6-88 and Director Selena's best efforts to help the surface die out in a timely manner. Funny thing is I have Radio Freedom Praising the Institute for destroying the BOS LOL WTF!?!?!

You guys have beat the lore to death. One of the best threads out there.

[ubik]

Publicado originalmente por Six of Saturn:

One of the best threads out there.

[mithraP]

Publicado originalmente por Six of Saturn:

You are not just a Paladin but a Sentinel, second highest rank in the BOS under Elder with no responsibilities. :P

From a BoS presumely returned to its root traditions... when their only members were born into it.

Publicado originalmente por Six of Saturn:

Funny thing is I have Radio Freedom Praising the Institute for destroying the BOS LOL

Seriously, what the... ? Oh, this is a new low. These guys not only deserve to be invaded, they actually need to be invaded, for their own good. Caesar must be breathing heavily.

Publicado originalmente por Six of Saturn:

You guys have beat the lore to death. One of the best threads out there.

It's a sad thing that it's the customers who have to beat the lore to death, again.
This beating session is supposed to happen when a script gets pitched...

[Mako]

Im sorry to be a party breaker but nobody was happy about BoS arrival to begin with. And what DJ actually says hardly counts as praising bc he sounds worried about Institute being unopposed again.
Also, Caesar is dead. There is no way his ending will be chosen in any possible timeline continuation.

Also, tell me. In what Fallout game you are punished for not carrying out your duty. Im talking about things like not taking quests, not some special ways to fail them.
In none of them.
In fact Fallout 4 is probably the closest to this. When you forget about radiant quests (those endless repeatable help requests) for settlements they automatically fail after some time, happyness drop and you can lose a settlement (through its not a big deal, bc next radian quest for the same settlement will give it back).
BTW BoS has radiant quests too (everybody does those days), they are boring ofc, but they actually provide something for the sentinel to do.

[Six of Saturn]

Also Caesar is Obsidian. I doubt anything from NV will be recognized by Bethesda. A shame if the future stands my statement correct.
Dj didn't sound too worried in my playthrough. When I get back from vacation I will listen again and record it. Could be wrong. I never even joined the Minutemen until like a in game time month after Nuclear Family.

[Mako]

LOL. Bethesda has no reason to hate Obsidian. I can totally see why they didnt mention almost anything from New Vegas. Most of its events are optional but even big changes like NCR losing to Caesar have almost no chance to affect east coast soon enough to influence F4 events. Why lock those choices now then? This would only limit possible storytelling in case they decide to make (or let others make) another west coast Fallout.
Obsidian fanboys would be the first to bash Bethesda for NV events locking in F4. First because they did different choices as players, then if Obsidian makes NV sequel and were denied creative freedom thanks to those unnecessary mentions.

[bunny puncher]

My biggest problem with Bethesda's lore is that it basically just completely ignores any logic relative to its position in the Fallout timeline.

After TWO CENTURIES:

- all those cardboard-packed pre-war foodstuffs have long since disintegrated unless it's been sealed up in air-tight storage
- there would be no pristine pre-war created clothing anywhere
- pre-war built wooden houses/structures would be almost completely gone, reclaimed by nature and totally ruined by the elements and neglect; e.g. the majority of Concord and Lexington
- just about all pre-war loot at logical sites of scavenging (pre-war factories, bunkers, etc) would have been picked clean literally a century ago, nothing left for the Lone Survivor to find
- pre-war manufactured guns would be much, much, MUCH more scarce

And that's just relating to the logical ravages of time. Additionally...

- society would be much further rebuilt 200 years post-war than how it's portrayed in the Commonwealth and Capital Wasteland, certainly to a pre-Industrial level at least
- people would have re-learned basic engineering first-principles again in regard to construction; established settlements wouldn't just consist of shoddily constructed shacks and walls made of poorly reclaimed salvage and garbage, this long after the nuclear cataclysm they'd have rebuilt sound structures to live in
- 200 years post-war, there should either be a lot more children in the wasteland, OR a lot less people overall around


Fallout 2, set 160 years post-war, better reflected all these points. FO3 and FO4 are supposedly set 200 years post-war, and yet the wasteland Bethesda has designed would only make sense for a world that's maybe 50 years post-war, and that's already stretching it.

So I definitely agree with the OP; it really does seem like the majority of Bethesda never bothered to play FO1/2 when they purchased the IP from Interplay. And either Bethesda's game-writers are idiots, or there was an idiotic operational disconnect between the writers and designers as they built FO3 and FO4's wasteland setting.


It's really aggravating, and not least of all exactly because FO4 is otherwise such an excellent game. It feels like being given a delicious steak, cooked to perfection, but the chef carelessly dropped it on the floor before plating it.

[Mako]

Fallout 2 (and New Vegas for this matter) has ppl living in pre-war ruins almost everywhere. As well as abandoned military base still having power and functioning robots.
Fallout 2 had pre-war cheezy poofs. It wasnt consumable by player, but certain talking rat ate them w/o problems. Also New Vegas has pretty much the same selection of pre-war food as F3.
So its crazy (and probably started as a joke), but its a part of Fallout.

Publicado originalmente por Six of Saturn:

Dj didn't sound too worried in my playthrough. When I get back from vacation I will listen again and record it. Could be wrong. I never even joined the Minutemen until like a in game time month after Nuclear Family.

I didnt find the recording of him talking about BoS destruction but this one should clear any confusion about his general reaction to BoS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRMT-czbCu4

[bunny puncher]

Publicado originalmente por Mako:

Fallout 2 (and New Vegas for this matter) has ppl living in pre-war ruins almost everywhere. As well as abandoned military base still having power and functioning robots.
Fallout 2 had pre-war cheezy poofs. It wasnt consumable by player, but certain talking rat ate them w/o problems. Also New Vegas has pretty much the same selection of pre-war food as F3.
So its crazy (and probably started as a joke), but its a part of Fallout.

Fallout 2's pre-war areas didn't feature, for example, quaint neighborhoods with pre-war wooden homes abandoned since the war but somehow still standing. The ruins in FO2 were exactly that: ruins, generally populated only by ghouls (e.g. Necropolis). As for the military installations that still had power and robots, that always made sense: the functioning power/robots themselves are what kept looters away. This is in contrast to all kinds of areas in FO3/FO4, in which the player pretty much just walks into pre-war buildings with little or no pre-war defenses, and immediately finds pristine pre-war loot in a chest, or even just laying out in the open.

Also, Fallout 2 was more plausible in that it featured organized tribal societies, living in earthen dwellings and subsisting solely on farming and hunting, a logical development for the setting and it's place on the timeline. This element was continued in New Vegas. But the concept was ignored in FO3/FO4's world design.

New Vegas' setting details aren't as egregious in terms of timeline logic, because 1.) the Mojave region wasn't a priority target for bombardment, so it got off relatively light overall 2.) additionally, Mr. House's defenses destroyed a portion of the Chinese warheads that were sent 3.) it was pluasible that the pre-war construction in various areas were better maintained by inhabitants the last 160 years because of the above mentioned points resulting in the Mojave being repopulated much more quickly than other areas of the United States

And last but not least (actually most important of all)... New Vegas, in contrast to FO3/FO4, actually has a major faction that underscores the point that civilization should be much further along in rebuilding: The New California Republic. Although the game doesn't let us visit the NCR proper, it's apparent from context in the game that there is legitimate organized, pre-Industrial society in the NCR, not just another lawless wasteland. And that, even despite the west coast being hit harder by Chinese nukes than the east coast. So that just makes the state of the Commonwealth and Capital Wasteland 200 years post-war even more illogical by comparison.


As for all the pre-war food... yeah, well,that was still really dumb and illogical, but Obsidian didn't build the game from the ground up; being a de facto FO3 spin-off, they were obligated to reuse FO3's assets.

The cooking options in New Vegas were a nod from Obsidian's staffers to how the setting should be in fact.

[Mako]

I dont buy this.
There are a lot of remote and abandoned locations in NV, looking just like any populated one. NCR is new to this region. And previously it was ruled by tribes of savages that were resocialised by Mr House shortly before NCR arrival. The last thing they would bother themself with is polishing pre-war ruins for 200y. In real life all this would have been raised and rebuit anew long ago.

"they were obligated to reuse FO3's assets."
no


Fallout world was never meant to work like ours and follow real laws of physics. Taking this away and turning it into another generic world would be the worst thing to happen to franchise since PS2 FO game.

[Joji Kyre]

Do and say what you want BUT DONT TOUCH MY DAMN CAPS YOU EVIL PERSON!!!!