Father is NOT the real shaun! !!! SPOILERS !!!

[Peter Green]

hey guys, i came across something more mindblowing then the initial "my son is 70 years old now" thing. when youre in kelloggs memories, in the last scene where he and shaun are sitting in his shack, waiting for the instituteagent to pick him up and bring him into the institute, there is the radio playing in the background. it was playing too in one of the other scenes when you saw kellogg and his mom. then the DJ spoke of the new californian republic.but now as kellog sits there with shaun. you can hear the normal diamond city DJ talking about piper... and the mayor told you kellogg lived with a little boy in the city not long ago wich in combination means that this scene with the 10 year old shaun cant be happened 60 years ago. so... think about it. why would kellogg babysit the 10 year old synth shaun? no this scene must have been the real one. that 10 year old shaun must be the real one. and yes you get a ton of info about kellogg in the institute, that kellogg was preserved to become older than normal... i dont belive that. IT COULD BE, that the radio DJ talking about piper is a bug. and i cant tell where the real shaun now is. the 10 year old shaun that you get to see in the institute IS a synth. and if you destroy the institute you get that synth shaun as some sort of companion.

[Xain'd Sleena]

I also think Father can't be Shaun. In my opinion, Shaun is a 10yo kid, the one you see in the end, only if you destroy the institute.
My clues are :
- Kellogg
- the holotape(s) of the ending(s)
- the fact you are not expected to reach the institute
- Father

KELLOGG
If there is a person who can tell Shaun's real age, this person is Kellogg. When you talk to Kellogg, he tells you "Shaun is a good kid". Can "kid" refer to Father ?
He also uses "good" and in his memories, he kinda liked babysitting. We can assume he likes Shaun. In his memories, when you are in the vault part, he "says" "At least I know those institute b#####d will ...". He can't like Father and hate the institute at the same time.
If the Diamond city's scene took place 50 years after the kidnapping, Kellogg would know it is a synth. When you are in his memories the kid is labelled "Shaun". This label is part of Kellogg's memories. That means Kellogg thinks this boy is Shaun (Kellogg could have been tricked too but with a boy of the same age).
When you kill Kellog, in his terminal, you also find a note written by Kellogg. This note says "The boy, Shaun, successfully delivered back to the institute ...". For Kellogg, the kid in Diamond City is Shaun.
In the same part, the courser also says "Shaun".
They usually use the synth identifiers.
So, for Kellogg, the boy in Diamond City is Shaun and Kellogg knows the age of Shaun.

THE HOLOTAPE - THE REVENGE
Another important clue is the holotape the "kid" gives you after the ending scene. This holotape says this boy is a synth programmed to be your son and he deserves to live. This does not make sense. Why would father give a synth freedom ? Father thinks synths are just tools. If you side with the institute and tell him you freed the synths in bunker hill, he tells you this is stupid. The holotape given to you after the end was recorded before you meet father for the first time. I figured it out in my last playthrough because I killed father just when I met him. In the end, there was the kid and the same holotape.
If this boy is really a synth, there is a contradiction, he records the tape "this synth deserves to live" then he tells you "thinks cannot be free". I think he prepared a poisonous revenge. This tape makes sense if the kid is Shaun. If this boy is your son but Father makes you believe he is not, you might not behave the same say. Maybe you can reject him or just kill him. That plan fits Father.
If you side with the institute, there is a "kid" and a different holotape. This kid can't be Shaun. When you talk to him, he says "Do you think it s weird I've never seen the surface ?". This kid cannot be the one from the Diamond City scene (maybe he's been reprogrammed). The reason is you are now the leader of the institute and you cannot be given your real son back. Father wants you to think he was Shaun until you die. If the kid grows up, you will find out he is not your son. Then you will know Father lied to you and what comes next will probably not be good for the institute.

YOU ARE NOT WELCOME TO THE INSTITUTE
Father never wanted to see you in the institute to begin with. As Kellogg says, "you don't find the institute, the institute finds you". If the Institute wants someone, a team is sent. This is what happenned with Shaun, Kellogg and T S Wallace (institute quest). Supermutant Virgil was about to "meet" the institute too.
Father admits that he tought you'd be killed in the Commonwealth. Father lured you to Kellogg, not to the institute. His goal was to make you meet Kellogg so you could fight and one of you would die.

FATHER IS A LIAR
Yes father is a liar. You cannot take what he says for granted. He is not trustful at all.
Firstly, he is the leader of the institute, the same organization that hides underground, kills and replaces people with synth replicants.
Secondly, he also hides think to his employees. For example, Father lied about the FEV incident to Madison LI.
The first time you meet him, he is unarmed. Usually, unarmed people are trustful. Howevern Father has nothing to lose if he gets killed immediatly. Why ? because of his uncurable desease. He knows his days are counted. So he bluffs to try to make you believe his s..t. When he sees you for the first time, his eventual revenge is already prepared.

THE STORYLINE
To conclude, my storyline is simple :
You are frozen in the Vault.
190 years later, Shaun is kidnapped.
10 years later, you wake up.
Shaun is in Diamond City (for how long ?). He comes back to the institute with the courser.
Shaun is given the Holotape of the endings when you destroy the institute. The synth kid is given the holotape you will find if you finish the game with the institute.
Shaun will be freed if the destroy the institute.
If you side with the institute, Shaun will have to disapear.

In my opinion, if you side with the institute, you don't deserve to see Shaun again.

[Urah]

Publicado originalmente por Nebuchadnezzar III:

Kellogg is a synth, Father is not your son.
The amount of BS here is legendary lol.

+1,000

[Urah]

It amazes me how you complicate things when the game is so plain simple and shallow.

Do you really really REALLY believe a thought like that passed through Emil's head?

What do you think this is, Westworld???

[mfree]

Publicado originalmente por Xain'd Sleena:

I also think Father can't be Shaun. In my opinion, Shaun is a 10yo kid, the one you see in the end, only if you destroy the institute.
My clues are :

*sigh*. You didn't read everything in the institute, you didn't pay attention to the right clues, and more importantly, you didn't read through this year+ old RESOLVED thread.

[EnclaveEyebot]

An interesting thread to be sure, never thought of that when playing the game. Please, in the future, make your threat title not include one of the only spoilers of this game lol!

[Flippy]

Ok so when can the player character find the real Shaun?

[Brandybuck]

Publicado originalmente por America First:

What a bunch of crock that has been disproven over 25 times here alone.

Not a crock. This is a roleplaying game, you get to play your own character, and if you character wants to believe that then you character gets to believe that. End. Of. Story.

The only evidence you have one way or another would not hold up in a court of law. It's all circumstantial, hearsay and disputable. Maybe Father lies? Maybe the Director of the Institute can strong arm other Directors in backing him up? Maybe he can plant evidence? Maybe? If one wants to roleplay that way then you the hell are you to stop them?

[Shahadem]

Yes we've all done the "Father can't be Shaun thing" just as we've all been the scarecrow.

Kellogg's memories provide proof that the man who ordered him to steal Shaun is also the same man who ordered him to spend time in Diamond City with the child and then go pursue Virgil. The only proof to the contrary is in the Institute where Father was very clearly staging a deception so there is little reason to believe what you read on Father's terminal.

[Yhwach]

Publicado originalmente por Xain'd Sleena:

I also think Father can't be Shaun..[/i]

I also think you're a dirty thread necromancer
Shoo

[Von Faustien]

Publicado originalmente por Be-bop:

Think back to the conversation with Shaun on the rooftop of the CIT building. Shaun explaines that he relesed you as the backup DNA in an experiment and that you had now passed the test.
He then invites you to a meeting where he informs everyone that he is dying and appoints you as his sucessor.
I think he had set a path that would lead you to him if you passed certain test that would finally lead you to the Institute an prove you had what it takes to replace him and have a DNA link to the Institute.
In each faction he placed a synth so that he had an oportunity to present you with situations and evaluate the results.

Mamma Murphy

Diamond City Mayor

Young Shaun,
(who was a dissapointment to Shaun in his reaction to you when you found him at the institute.)

If you want to go that deep into the story line it's fun to figure out the other synths he sent along the way that could lead you to him. I've read from others that Synths wont have an inventory could be one clue.

Interesting topic. I am looking forward to other repies and theories.

Mamma Murphy isnt a synth she just has psionic power which have been a thing going back to fallout 1.

sturges is however a synth granted proably a railroad mind wipe job seeing as he helps destory the institute

[Darkaiser]

Sad to say, there are enough holes in the initial plotline to drive a train through.

The Institute needs 'pure DNA' to take their Gen 3 synth program to completion. They have a whole vault full of people with such DNA literally on ice. So after extracting ONE sample (a baby), they're going to toss the rest out? HUH? Those people were frozen solid. They were NO threat to anyone. What if Shaun got sick? They leave a grand total of ONE backup and kill the rest? Stupid.

There is absolutely NO reason for the Synths to replace anyone. When you replace people you have to download their memories, imitate their habits etc. We have a chance to run across one in the process of taking out the person he's supposed to replace. Like that NEVER happened before? Much easier to simply create synths, give them identites and introduce them into the various communities peacefully. Not like anyone is handing out ID or anything.

The Institute is SO worried about spying on the Commonwealth and yet they don't bother to make Synth dogs. SEROUSLY? They can grow gorillas (and not like THOSE have any use) but a Synth dog could spy on anyone without fear of being caught. They guy who travels around selling the dogs could even be a real guy just in case! Waste of an opportunity there.

To date, I have found no Synth agents for the Institute in ANY of the various gangs. Um, why not? A strong, brave, capable fighter would be welcomed in almost any gang. He could rise up through the ranks and become leader. Then they would be in a perfect position to spy on the gangs and manipulate them as needed. Keeping them from organizing and growing too strong.

Why not Synth Supermutants? Not like THOSE guys are bright enough to slice bread on a good day. Build a synth big, strong, green and make them act dumb. When the time was right for the Institute to rise up, all of the Synth gang leaders could attack the Brotherhood and wear them down to the point that the Gen 1s and 2s can take them out.

Why aren't the Synths wearing power armor? Not like the geniuses at the Institute couldn't make some or even salvage it from the Wasteland. An army of Gen 2s in PA with good weapons would give even the Brotherhood a run for their money.

If the Institute is so all-fired smart, why is Father dying of cancer? I understand he sees Synths as tools but that's assuming they are programmed and then mature on their own. You REALLY think they wouldn't upload Father's mind into a young, healthy Gen 3? He'd rather die and leave the fate of his pet project in YOUR hands?

I have found a grand total of 16 missile launchers and nearly a hundred missiles in the few weeks of game time since I emerged from vault 111. Um...the Prydwyn looks a tad bit vulnerable up there. A few good hits (and it's kinda hard to miss) and the Brotherhood's ultimate terror base becomes a revisit of the Hindenburg.

Why no Synth agents in the Minutemen or the Railroad? We've determined that the ONLY way to detect a Synth is to kill them and rummage around looking for the mystical Synth Component. So the Institute takes out the Switchboard and they DON'T replace one of the Railroad they find there, download their brain and replace them. REALLY?

Why is Piper still alive? She blows the lid off the Mayor (or tries to) and basically keeps shining a great big old light on the Institute. When we first see her she's outside Diamond City so obviously she leave to do other things. They haven't taken her out WHY?


These are what I just came up with while sitting here. I'm sure there are many more.

[Overheadace]

thought something like this was already solved given its 2 years old

[Yhwach]

Publicado originalmente por Darkaiser:

Sad to say, there are enough holes in the initial plotline to drive a train through.

The Institute needs 'pure DNA' to take their Gen 3 synth program to completion. They have a whole vault full of people with such DNA literally on ice. So after extracting ONE sample (a baby), they're going to toss the rest out? HUH? Those people were frozen solid. They were NO threat to anyone. What if Shaun got sick? They leave a grand total of ONE backup and kill the rest? Stupid.

There is absolutely NO reason for the Synths to replace anyone. When you replace people you have to download their memories, imitate their habits etc. We have a chance to run across one in the process of taking out the person he's supposed to replace. Like that NEVER happened before? Much easier to simply create synths, give them identites and introduce them into the various communities peacefully. Not like anyone is handing out ID or anything.

The Institute is SO worried about spying on the Commonwealth and yet they don't bother to make Synth dogs. SEROUSLY? They can grow gorillas (and not like THOSE have any use) but a Synth dog could spy on anyone without fear of being caught. They guy who travels around selling the dogs could even be a real guy just in case! Waste of an opportunity there.

To date, I have found no Synth agents for the Institute in ANY of the various gangs. Um, why not? A strong, brave, capable fighter would be welcomed in almost any gang. He could rise up through the ranks and become leader. Then they would be in a perfect position to spy on the gangs and manipulate them as needed. Keeping them from organizing and growing too strong.

Why not Synth Supermutants? Not like THOSE guys are bright enough to slice bread on a good day. Build a synth big, strong, green and make them act dumb. When the time was right for the Institute to rise up, all of the Synth gang leaders could attack the Brotherhood and wear them down to the point that the Gen 1s and 2s can take them out.

Why aren't the Synths wearing power armor? Not like the geniuses at the Institute couldn't make some or even salvage it from the Wasteland. An army of Gen 2s in PA with good weapons would give even the Brotherhood a run for their money.

If the Institute is so all-fired smart, why is Father dying of cancer? I understand he sees Synths as tools but that's assuming they are programmed and then mature on their own. You REALLY think they wouldn't upload Father's mind into a young, healthy Gen 3? He'd rather die and leave the fate of his pet project in YOUR hands?

I have found a grand total of 16 missile launchers and nearly a hundred missiles in the few weeks of game time since I emerged from vault 111. Um...the Prydwyn looks a tad bit vulnerable up there. A few good hits (and it's kinda hard to miss) and the Brotherhood's ultimate terror base becomes a revisit of the Hindenburg.

Why no Synth agents in the Minutemen or the Railroad? We've determined that the ONLY way to detect a Synth is to kill them and rummage around looking for the mystical Synth Component. So the Institute takes out the Switchboard and they DON'T replace one of the Railroad they find there, download their brain and replace them. REALLY?

Why is Piper still alive? She blows the lid off the Mayor (or tries to) and basically keeps shining a great big old light on the Institute. When we first see her she's outside Diamond City so obviously she leave to do other things. They haven't taken her out WHY?


These are what I just came up with while sitting here. I'm sure there are many more.

Bethesda

The Institute believes in control as one of its secret objectives as its collective goal system, It's only necessary to replace humans with an indentical copy if it serves them best.

It's a waste of time and their current goal is to focus on the human anatomy, anyone that played the game long enough would know this.
Placing a human in the wasteland is the best form of cover they can get..that and the crows.

Gabriel

Human
Anatomy

Mass Production, play the game more.

Cancer never having a cure was to show the folly of The Institute, where as they're able to create all this amazing technology they're still unable to determine how to cure a terminal illness.

Static
Objects
And the fact that the hull is plated in metal, seriously play the game more

The Railroad already uses synths as agents, they'd be more than likely to find out who is one due to observing them for years.
The Brotherhood of Steel already had one: Danse, but he was never given an objective in mind by The Institute other than to learn from them.

Mayor Mcdonough under any circumstance CANNOT blow his cover, or he knows The Institute will come after him; the fact that she's locked out of the city is less conspicious and makes more sense.

And I highly doubt there are a good handful of plot holes left, if you can even call them it; just Bethesda not explaining things better, and people not getting it and posting why z is not a and why they're right.

[Darkaiser]

Publicado originalmente por Lord Beerus:

Publicado originalmente por Darkaiser:

Sad to say, there are enough holes in the initial plotline to drive a train through.

The Institute needs 'pure DNA' to take their Gen 3 synth program to completion. They have a whole vault full of people with such DNA literally on ice. So after extracting ONE sample (a baby), they're going to toss the rest out? HUH? Those people were frozen solid. They were NO threat to anyone. What if Shaun got sick? They leave a grand total of ONE backup and kill the rest? Stupid.

There is absolutely NO reason for the Synths to replace anyone. When you replace people you have to download their memories, imitate their habits etc. We have a chance to run across one in the process of taking out the person he's supposed to replace. Like that NEVER happened before? Much easier to simply create synths, give them identites and introduce them into the various communities peacefully. Not like anyone is handing out ID or anything.

The Institute is SO worried about spying on the Commonwealth and yet they don't bother to make Synth dogs. SEROUSLY? They can grow gorillas (and not like THOSE have any use) but a Synth dog could spy on anyone without fear of being caught. They guy who travels around selling the dogs could even be a real guy just in case! Waste of an opportunity there.

To date, I have found no Synth agents for the Institute in ANY of the various gangs. Um, why not? A strong, brave, capable fighter would be welcomed in almost any gang. He could rise up through the ranks and become leader. Then they would be in a perfect position to spy on the gangs and manipulate them as needed. Keeping them from organizing and growing too strong.

Why not Synth Supermutants? Not like THOSE guys are bright enough to slice bread on a good day. Build a synth big, strong, green and make them act dumb. When the time was right for the Institute to rise up, all of the Synth gang leaders could attack the Brotherhood and wear them down to the point that the Gen 1s and 2s can take them out.

Why aren't the Synths wearing power armor? Not like the geniuses at the Institute couldn't make some or even salvage it from the Wasteland. An army of Gen 2s in PA with good weapons would give even the Brotherhood a run for their money.

If the Institute is so all-fired smart, why is Father dying of cancer? I understand he sees Synths as tools but that's assuming they are programmed and then mature on their own. You REALLY think they wouldn't upload Father's mind into a young, healthy Gen 3? He'd rather die and leave the fate of his pet project in YOUR hands?

I have found a grand total of 16 missile launchers and nearly a hundred missiles in the few weeks of game time since I emerged from vault 111. Um...the Prydwyn looks a tad bit vulnerable up there. A few good hits (and it's kinda hard to miss) and the Brotherhood's ultimate terror base becomes a revisit of the Hindenburg.

Why no Synth agents in the Minutemen or the Railroad? We've determined that the ONLY way to detect a Synth is to kill them and rummage around looking for the mystical Synth Component. So the Institute takes out the Switchboard and they DON'T replace one of the Railroad they find there, download their brain and replace them. REALLY?

Why is Piper still alive? She blows the lid off the Mayor (or tries to) and basically keeps shining a great big old light on the Institute. When we first see her she's outside Diamond City so obviously she leave to do other things. They haven't taken her out WHY?


These are what I just came up with while sitting here. I'm sure there are many more.

Bethesda

The Institute believes in control as one of its secret objectives as its collective goal system, It's only necessary to replace humans with an indentical copy if it serves them best.

It's a waste of time and their current goal is to focus on the human anatomy, anyone that played the game long enough would know this.
Placing a human in the wasteland is the best form of cover they can get..that and the crows.

Gabriel

Human
Anatomy

Mass Production, play the game more.

Cancer never having a cure was to show the folly of The Institute, where as they're able to create all this amazing technology they're still unable to determine how to cure a terminal illness.

Static
Objects
And the fact that the hull is plated in metal, seriously play the game more

The Railroad already uses synths as agents, they'd be more than likely to find out who is one due to observing them for years.
The Brotherhood of Steel already had one: Danse, but he was never given an objective in mind by The Institute other than to learn from them.

Mayor Mcdonough under any circumstance CANNOT blow his cover, or he knows The Institute will come after him; the fact that she's locked out of the city is less conspicious and makes more sense.

And I highly doubt there are a good handful of plot holes left, if you can even call them it; just Bethesda not explaining things better, and people not getting it and posting why z is not a and why they're right.

Bethesda: Well that is the most well-informed and thoughtful answer ever. Elaborate?

Gabriel is not infiltrating the Gunners. He is an escaped Synth who joined them of his own free will.

Human anatomy is what you got here when they are building GORILLAS? Right...

Writers could have come up with a better way to demonstrate Human Folly than have the guy in charge of a research facility that builds people die instead of uploading his mind. Two lines of dialog wound have done it.

Um...The Prydwin is moored at the airport. Moored...look it up...it means 'fastened to something.' Makes it pretty stationary huh? Oh and missile launchers? Yeah...they damage metal.

Yes, the BoS has Danse...which is why I specifically didn't mention them. You have a fair point regarding the Railroad though. After working with so many Synths, they would learn to sniff one out before anyone. And the Minutemen?

Yes, locked out is less conspicuous...and doesn't seem to work...ever. This is established in our conversation with Danny after we enter DIamond City. The Commonwealth is a dangerous place. Two in the back of her head would make a LOT more sense.

Bethesda not explaining things better IS a plot hole. If they 'explained things better', most of these would not exist. It's lazy writing more than anything.

[Darkaiser]

Oh by the way...If you look up Irony in the dictionary one of the definitions is 'Guy who has played 600 hours on a game telling the guy who has played 900 hours to play more.' Just sayin...