Synth Retention & Railroad Quests

[Myobi]

Hello guys, I'm half way done with the quest Synth Retention, I advanced that far to get the Institute teleport and went off to collect my bobble heads and magazines, after collecting almost everything I found out that I'm locked out from the Railroad quests... Desdemona told me we can't be friends because she knows I'm working for the Institute and now no one inside the place will speak to me.

Is there anyway to “fix” this? I don't mind using console commands to go “back” if there is a way.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by Сааребас:

If you take their rethoric at face value then there is indeed nothing inherently damaging to human society in the wastelands.
However, their actions are.

Not only is the way they fight against the Institute making the Institute turn harsher against the commonwealth, they don't even make sure the synths they release are programmed to better the commonwealth or at the very least not cause intentional harm towards wastelanders.

I wouldn't disagree that there is the unfortunate side-effect of the Institute sending out additional forces to track down synths, and that does cause some trouble, though in regard to not causing intentional harm, synths seem about equal to natural humans in that regard, though probably less troublesome in a practical sense given that the Railroad will try to place them somewhere safe and stable. It's intended for the benefit of the synths, but does mean they're less likely to be motivated to cause trouble.

Originally posted by Сааребас:

Furthermore are they perfectly willing to sacrifice fragile human beings, who take longer to reproduce, in favor of machine, who can be replicated at a very fast pace, only limited by energy output.
They don't even take the time to (re)integrate the synths they let loose (back) into the wastelands.

They do quite happily employ synths who are willing, but the same argument you're making means no-one should ever risk their lives to fight slavery, since you couldn't weigh just giving someone freedom as equal to someone completely losing their life (since being alive is a prerequisite for enjoying freedom anyway). It would likewise mean you couldn't risk two or more natural humans to save one natural human, either, since two humans are obviously more valuable than one. It's a kind of moral mathematics that denies people from pursuing a lot of ideals.

They do try to integrate synths, since that's part of preventing the Institute from finding them.

Originally posted by Сааребас:

Not even to mention that there is no evidence that synths are actually being enslaved. Why would they happily let you "enslave" Codsworth?
What is stopping them from going for Mr. Handy's next, after the destruction of the Institute?

There are only certain things provable about synths.
They are synthetic, they function on a.i. and are capable of mimicking human emotions (which are often seen used to deceive people).

I'd say, other then the synths in the RR, the RR is suffering from anthropomorphism.

The question of whether synths are human-equivalent people is certainly a core point of debate, and we cannot answer that question for certain. However, we can't answer it for most humans either; it's largely an assumption that the humans you meet aren't philosophical zombies who only act the part on the outside.

The best we can ask is that people be consistent to their beliefs, and the Railroad, believing synths to be human-equivalent with true consciousness and free will, treats them accordingly, while the Institute, believing them to be mere human-seeming imitations, does not.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by Cadaver Synod:

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

That argument is so old, so repeated, and so blown out of proportion it aint even worth it.

I can "buy" a settlement for like 400 caps by paying a ransom, or go out and kill a few mobs and people hand their ENTIRE settlement over. Yet if someone asks for donations they get all bent out of shape.

People complain Bethesda's writing sucks, yet the moment you try to point out this is one of those examples they decide to worship Bethesda rather than admit they misjudged the writing and quest.

the likes of those that are willing to confuse 'I got a sunburn' with Ottoman incursions.

The issue with it is that the Brotherhood as a whole is perfectly okay with even the most extreme option, and there's no practical way they could be unaware of it since the food has to be collected by Brotherhood troops.

Saying it was just Teagan or it was just the Sole Survivor is like saying it was just Kellogg; either we hold organizations responsible for the actions of their members or we don't.

[Nitemares]

I seem to remember getting into the RR without doing any of their quests a couple times as well, AND being locked out the RR quests.

Not that I minded, or was going to do their quests anyways.


Like someone else said, I generally avoid the main story line, and only do it when I happen across the quests, as opposed to seeking them out... As such my memory may be a little fuzzy so help me out some.

as I recall:

Never talked to Danse in Lexington.
Rescued Nick (went for the bobblehead)
saw what's his pickle in the glowing sea.
Killed the courser.
Amari sends me to the RR as I had no contact with Brotherhood.

Went to the church opened the secret door.

got the flood lights in the eye: "blah, blah, balh"

"Courser chip"

then dialogue to the effect of "we'll pull the data but get to keep the chip"

Go right into the base, Tinker Tom.... get plans.


And... I left. I never tried to join them, or talk to Deacon... So I have no idea if I was actually locked out of quests.

I have a feeling the OP did something similar....


Keep in mind too guys, you can do the RR's first quest by just going to the the secret door in the church and opening in. you don't need to stop by the Common, or find a holotape.


Heck you can go to the RR right out the vault, not doing any other quests!
And IF you do that.. Deacon actually has some unique dialogue!!!

Try it out.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by Nitemares:

I seem to remember getting into the RR without doing any of their quests a couple times as well, AND being locked out the RR quests.

Not that I minded, or was going to do their quests anyways.


Like someone else said, I generally avoid the main story line, and only do it when I happen across the quests, as opposed to seeking them out... As such my memory may be a little fuzzy so help me out some.

as I recall:

Never talked to Danse in Lexington.
Rescued Nick (went for the bobblehead)
saw what's his pickle in the glowing sea.
Killed the courser.
Amari sends me to the RR as I had no contact with Brotherhood.

Went to the church opened the secret door.

got the flood lights in the eye: "blah, blah, balh"

"Courser chip"

then dialogue to the effect of "we'll pull the data but get to keep the chip"

Go right into the base, Tinker Tom.... get plans.


And... I left. I never tried to join them, or talk to Deacon... So I have no idea if I was actually locked out of quests.

I have a feeling the OP did something similar....

It's basically the result of having no contact with the Railroad until you get the courser chip and need it decoded.

While Desdemona objects to letting you in as a violation of their protocols, Deacon points out that you have the courser chip, and killing a courser for it places you as an enemy of the Institute. They never even bring up joining as a possibility; the closest they get is Desdemona commenting after the decoding is done she'd like to work with you again.

Apart from locking out Railroad quests by pushing ahead with it and entering the Institute without further Railroad assistance, the other consequence is that, by not doing Tradecraft, you'll see the Plugging a Leak quest when you get to the right point in the Institute storyline.

[Bored Peon]

Originally posted by Nitemares:

I seem to remember getting into the RR without doing any of their quests a couple times as well, AND being locked out the RR quests.

The way it works is like this:
Road to Freedom is never skipped or skippable.

Road to Freedom ends with you agreeing to Desdemona's terms of being willing to die for a synth. It does not complete without agreeing to that. I know because I have tried multiple times to say no, or decline to answer. Also why the wiki notes the player has to agree to her terms. Then Desdemona tells you they have no time to train a new agent. At that point the Railroad considers you a Tourist (asset) and not an agent.

Then you have to consider "walking the Freedom Trail" seems to be some sort of "rite of passage to joining" the Railroad. As it becomes one of the common NPC lines from Railroad NPC and Goodneighbor NPCs.

Then one of two things happen with quest progression:
If you did Road to Freedom prior to gaining a courser chip through Hunter/Hunted then you need to do Tradecraft to become an agent to gain access to the Railroad HQ. Which basically means you did this during ACT 1 or Act 2 (prior to Molecular Level)

If you have the courser chip it allows you to skip Tradecraft in order to gain access to the railroad HQ. At that point you can still go back and do Tradecraft and become an agent and gain Deacon as a companion.
(Not going back for Tradecraft is how you and the OP missed out.)

So basically a semantic argument broke out because someone was trying to argue a person had to be an agent to be member of the Railroad. Which defies common sense because Old Man Stockton, Ricky Bobby, and a whole bunch of other NPCs in the Railroad are NOT agents. If caught by the Institute do these people get to say "I aint an agent because I did not do Tradecraft" as their get out of jail free card?

The OP went and joined the Institute then decided to go back to become an agent. So of course Desdemona said GTFO. Then the OP got angry because the OP was told they could not just fix it with the console and grudgingly accepted they needed to do the Railroad in a new game. Yet someone insisted upon arguing on behalf of the OP anyways.

[Nitemares]

yea. Like I said., I had no intention of joining the RR so I just left and went on my day...

But I can see the OP doing the same thing and then getting locked out too.


just wanted to make sure I hadn't introduced a new way thanks to modding the crap out of the game, as I do have several modded options to end the game as well.

[Bored Peon]

Originally posted by Nitemares:

yea. Like I said., I had no intention of joining the RR so I just left and went on my day...

But I can see the OP doing the same thing and then getting locked out too.


just wanted to make sure I hadn't introduced a new way thanks to modding the crap out of the game, as I do have several modded options to end the game as well.

You knew you were skipping though, that is the difference.

When I go to a new area in a new game I talk to NPCs....not push on through to some other area and ignore them.

I really cannot comment much further without it being vaguely construed as being rude and disrespectful towards the OP by some twisted interpretation. Which given the ongoing argument and the jester harassment someone is just waiting for me to do that.

[Nitemares]

Think of Jesters as "free money" for you to buy other things... or to hand jesters out yourself!

hell, some people farm them! (#1 reason for the troll posts I think)

No sense in getting too worked up over things... public forums are pretty much like public washrooms:

Even if there is a toilet, people still want to crap on the floor.

[Bored Peon]

Originally posted by Nitemares:

Think of Jesters as "free money" for you to buy other things... or to hand jesters out yourself!

I have never given out a jester award.
Now will I ever give out a jester award.
I do not reward the dog for making a mess on the floor.

As for spending them...Yeah I have given out 160k in awards and I still have like a 200k balance.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

Road to Freedom ends with you agreeing to Desdemona's terms of being willing to die for a synth. It does not complete without agreeing to that. I know because I have tried multiple times to say no, or decline to answer. Also why the wiki notes the player has to agree to her terms. Then Desdemona tells you they have no time to train a new agent. At that point the Railroad considers you a Tourist (asset) and not an agent.

This is flatly wrong (or at least grossly mislead about the issue in question), since you skip that dialogue branch if you arrive with the courser chip already in hand on your first meeting with the Railroad. In that case, you enter the Railroad HQ and get the courser chip decoded without the matter being raised, though you can talk to Desdemona about it afterwards.

EDIT: Slight correction here, since a quick check shows that Road to Freedom technically remains active, it just hasn't presented the dialogue yet, nor are you mandated to pursue it.

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

So basically a semantic argument broke out because someone was trying to argue a person had to be an agent to be member of the Railroad. Which defies common sense because Old Man Stockton, Ricky Bobby, and a whole bunch of other NPCs in the Railroad are NOT agents. If caught by the Institute do these people get to say "I aint an agent because I did not do Tradecraft" as their get out of jail free card?

The matter of joining the Railroad that concerned the OP was their ability to do the Railroad storyline/quests, which already tells us we're talking about them being accepting an offer to joing the Railroad as an agent.

You tried to tell them both that they'd refused an offer to join, and that they'd already joined, because you didn't believe they could have not received an offer.

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

You were never offered a choice to join the Railroad?

ROFLMAO. You aint fooling anyone.
You HAVE to visit Tinker Tom in the Railroad HQ to build the molecular relay.

Instead you waited until well after the cut off to try to join the Railroad.

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

You cannot enter the Railroad HQ to talk to Tinker Tom without joining the Railroad.
You joined the Railroad then did nothing while advancing the main story.

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

The OP had to do Road to Freedom to get to the Institute.
The OP had the chance to work with the Railroad and ignored it.

However, we also know that the Sole Survivor isn't a "tourist" (the kind of role for people like Ricky) just by bringing the courser chip, since in Tradecraft Deacon mentions Desdemona wanting him to make you one, which means you're not one yet just by working with them.

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

The OP went and joined the Institute then decided to go back to become an agent. So of course Desdemona said GTFO. Then the OP got angry because the OP was told they could not just fix it with the console and grudgingly accepted they needed to do the Railroad in a new game. Yet someone insisted upon arguing on behalf of the OP anyways.

The point is that the way the OP approach things, they were never offered the chance to join, which naturally made it annoying for them to find out later that they'd missed the chance entirely.

There wasn't any logical way for them to know Desdemona would deny the opportunity of having an inside agent just because they reached the Institute beforehand.

[Bored Peon]

You CANNOT reach the Institute without meeting with the Railroad.

People cannot claim the OP had no way of knowing.....

Originally posted by Myobi:

Hello guys, I'm half way done with the quest Synth Retention, I advanced that far to get the Institute teleport and went off to collect my bobble heads and magazines,

The OP was using a wiki to tell them where the bobbleheads and magazines were.

The excuse "If I ignore talking to NPCs and do not talk to them then it is the game's fault for not offering an opportunity to join" is a pathetic excuse.

In effect the OP did the equivalent of:
- Entering the museum and not talking to anyone, then later complain they were not given the chance of joining the Minutemen.
- Saving Danse, Rhys, and Halen then walking away after without taking to them then claim they were never given the opportunity of joining the BoS.

The OP had the opportunity to join, the OP ignored it by not talking to the NPCs.
Being combative and argumentative to try to claim it is not the OP's fault aint changing it.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

In effect the OP did the equivalent of:
- Entering the museum and not talking to anyone, then later complain they were not given the chance of joining the Minutemen.
- Saving Danse, Rhys, and Halen then walking away after without taking to them then claim they were never given the opportunity of joining the BoS.

Why should the OP have to magically anticipate that the option to join an entire faction will be cut off later for no logical reason, rather than getting on with the Molecular Level quest they would have had active at the time?

It's not just that the option wasn't offered, but that it was also unreasonably cut off in an unexpected way. Neither the Minutemen nor the Brotherhood cut off the ability to join them if it's not pursued immediately.

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

The OP had the opportunity to join, the OP ignored it by not talking to the NPCs.
Being combative and argumentative to try to claim it is not the OP's fault aint changing it.

Incorrect on two counts, as ignoring something requires initial awareness of it, which the game didn't provide, and the OP had already talked to the NPC in question.

Being combative and argumentative out of a need to blame the OP for something they couldn't reasonably anticipate isn't changing that.

[Bored Peon]

When the OP first visited the Railroad HQ could the OP have joined the Railroad? Yes.
Is it the game's fault the OP chose to ignore the NPCs? No.

End of discussion.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

When the OP first visited the Railroad HQ could the OP have joined the Railroad? Yes. Is it the game's fault the OP chose to ignore the NPCs? No.

End of discussion.

When the OP first visited the Railroad HQ, were they aware it would be their last chance to join the Railroad? No. Is it the game's fault that there was no clue to this? Yes.

Did you personally believe the OP could enter the Railroad HQ without joining? No.
Did you tell them they could not have avoided getting an offer, even though that was incorrect? Yes.

The former pair of facts is why the OP had an issue, the second of the latter pair is the point of error which I addressed.

[Сааребас]

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

...

I'm on my phone so it's really time consuming to quote each segment.
I instead opt to adress argument numerical.

1. Notice how I specifically state the way they fight the Institute, not the fact that they fight the Institute.
I firmly believe that the Institute is being dealt a bad hand but won't deny they give their opponents plenty of ammunition to do so righteously, albeit "enslaving" synths is not one of that.

Stealing and attacking with needles is not fighting, it's annoying at best.

We can see that synths left unchecked can and will become leaders of raiders.
Even DiMa cannot escape its nature despite it trying its hardest to deny and hide from it.
Even without certain knowledge it's still trying to deceive people.

2. They don't integrate synths, they (dis)place them and hope for the best. These bodies are not even the "consciences" they "saved" because no synths not working for the RR can keep their personality program and "memories".
The sole reason not every synth being "freed" joining the RR is either that they're not programmed to have compassion, not even to their own kind/cause or they are ungrateful/lack the ability to be compassionate. Neither bodes well.
Fear is not an excuse to not fight for survival/righteousness. Almost everyone who has fought has had fear of being harmed.
Be that in preparation or in the aftermath. Those claiming otherwise are either lying or psychopaths.
The only other option is if you are so more superior that there was never a chance to get hurt. Like kicking babies. (Hyperbole, I know).

3. Why does the RR think they know better then then the Institute?
After all, the Institute created both the shell/body and programmed their a.i.

How can they claim free will for a.i. whilst scientists are not even convinced that humans possess it?
I will concede that because synths are not human it could be possible to have actual free will but that would need to be proven.
E.g. we can test if animals possess self recognition through a mirror image. We have also established that dogs can display empathy.

If we take the definition of consciousness as: the state of being aware and reactive to one's surroundings, then almost all robots in Fallout adhere to that.
So why are Gen 3's special to the RR?
My explanation is that because they look human.