.

[Saturn Anomaly]

.

[PeaceMaker]

And it bothers you that much? All you need to do is not use Mods and play the game. That's it. No need to call people `toxic` whatever that means or belly-ache. To call people toxic is `tixic` in itself. Yea that's my new word for people like you.

Grow a thicker skin and stop being voluntarily 24/7 offended.

[Rich]

Bethesda games are nothing without the modding community.

[Morgosus]

I have created over a 100 mods. I absolutely agree. Most people act like we own the thing. The "all mods break on update" is a plain lie. None of my mods broke.

[SlasH]

Originally posted by LightUnknown77:

[...]

I would generally tend to agree with you, but there are at least two things, Bethesda should have addressed with the latest patches:

1. Game crashes with activated weapon debris on Nvidia cards
2. Long loading times

These two things are well known for a long time and in my personal opinion could have been fixed easily. If modders can do it, so can Bethesda.

[Saturn Anomaly]

Originally posted by SlasH:

Originally posted by LightUnknown77:

[...]

I would generally tend to agree with you, but there are at least two things, Bethesda should have addressed with the latest patches:

1. Game crashes with activated weapon debris on Nvidia cards
2. Long loading times

These two things are well known for a long time and in my personal opinion could have been fixed easily. If modders can do it, so can Bethesda.

I agree with you and should have included that in the post. They can do better than this.

[Ignis Imperia]

there goes your jester, enjoy.

[kkitts]

The problem with your assumed hot take, is that us vanilla players got our game broke by Bethesda's patches, too. I've never modded F4. I picked it back up with my new computer about a month before the Next Gen Patch, and while I got a smooth 60 FPS playing it, the lockpicking (which was incorrectly coupled to the frame rate, as per the High FPS Physics Mod developers) was way too fast - picks break in 1/2 of a second. Then the Next Gen Patch comes along and cuts me down to 30 FPS standing still with nothing else moving around me, just to make the lockpicking work, breaking the entire game in the process. I can only imagine how many CTDs I'd get going to downtown Boston with that slowdown programmed by Bethesda into the F4 engine now. I created a support ticket, then a week later, they blandly tell me to do a clean install of my video drivers, which successfully installed but didn't solve the problem. They've been radio silent since.

This is not how you treat your customers. This is why the mod community exists, because of the bug that crippled my game which was introduced by Bethesda after ES: Oblivion released (ES:Oblivion works on my new computer in 4K without mods and even lockpicking works properly, so Bethesda broke it after releasing Oblivion), followed by Bethesda's obscene method of fixing it by breaking my game even further. The modders are fixing stuff Bethesda will never touch. It would have been worth it to Bethesda and every Fallout player for Bethesda to purchase all the mods out there and integrate them into the game for everyone. It would have fixed a lot of things for all players.

As for myself, if Bethesda isn't going to fix it for PC users, they should have never pushed the update to PC players - not the new quests, not the new items, nothing. The new patches deal over 90% with console versions, not the PC version. We PC players (especially vanilla players like me) need fixes, too, not more bugs and unplayability.

And each day that goes by and I can't play the game due to Bethesda breaking the game is me not having a good day. It's just another thorn in my side, another game that has been stolen from me by developers.

[Winter Wolf]

There is definitely a symbiotic relationship between devs and modders in any game worth playing that is modifiable even if the devs don't see it. I think the fact that FO4 can be modded is a huge thumbs up. (I say this as someone who doesn't bother much with mods in most games.)

Where I think the bitter invective and hyperbole that sounds like entitlement comes from is the sense that the devs of a given game do not appear to care for the mods at all or ignore their reasons for being.

This is totally untrue of some games like Terraria where the devs embraced modding to the point of enabling and helping build upon and upgrade an engine to supply those mods to their players. But others -- like Battle Brothers -- were very reluctant to allow for mods at all and only because someone cracked their source and widely published it did they relent and acknowledge their existence. (which is shameful for the cracker but also great for the players.)

In Xcom 2, the Longwar series of mods was so good, the devs embraced the modders and made them a part of the process. This really varies from game to game. But there at least modders got a real boost to their prominence and status whereas others they are considered little better than cheats, parasites and thieves (pirates really).

I think this leads to a culture where modders and their fans may feel defensive and be ready to fight those who detract from their fame. It is a shame really. Sometimes game devs *need* a good kick in the rear to help them put innovations in that they skipped or forgot. (Shadowrun Returns save points system revamp for example.) And other games like this one you just gain a ton of replayability as well as fixes for things the devs don't think or care are broken.

Heck Battletech has a number of overhaul mods that emulate LongWar in that every part of the game has been changed in some way. This leads to some interesting bugs but also hours more game play.

[I am Groot]

Dont feed the level 0 accounts. Ps no Jester for you...

[Longhaul]

Probably has NO IDEA how to mod the game properly.

also...

Originally posted by Rich:

Bethesda games are nothing without the modding community.

100% Fact!

[cryocore]

Originally posted by LightUnknown77:

...

I think the whole dont patch because it break mods is utterly idiotic. No developer should be beholden to not update their game because it might affect content made by a 3rd party. That whole idea is profoundly moronic and entitled.

That being said Bethesda are the worst "AAA" developer on the planet. And their support for PC is insulting. There are known serious issues they refuse to address, and even the last update includes a broken feature they've also not address in this update. So they deserve no respect from the PC player base. There is a laundry list of issues affecting this game that have existed in previous games using this garbage-tier engine, and it i the modders who end up fixing most of these.

If I play this game on my PC without mods it is literally unplayable. Crashes, freezes, and catastrophic failure of the physics are common. The load times are unacceptable on a top of the line m.2 drive. Performance is all over the place. I go from over 200fps to less than 60 in some areas for no good reason. And that is just the bugs and ignores the atrocious UI, UX, and general interactivity of the menus and game. Not to mention the horrendous controls for parts of the game (crafting and settlement building).

Bethesda don't need to consider the effects on mods when they update their game, but they are required to consider the effects on players which they dont do at all in the PC space.

[1142]

Originally posted by Rich:

Bethesda games are nothing without the modding community.

This.

[Ranger#]

Bethesda has even said so themselves?

[SkinGravel]

Originally posted by 1142:

Originally posted by Rich:

Bethesda games are nothing without the modding community.

This.

You can flip it and say there wouldn't be a modding community for Bethesda games without Bethesda games.

@LIghtUknown77 I can agree with the the fact that there are a sh*t ton of entitled brats who don't deserve what they think they're owed. Across the board in all of gaming, and life in general, there will always be folks who don't deserve what they think they deserve.

At the same time, don't pretend that Bethesda's lack of polish isn't a reality. It damn sure is, and always has been. They have never dug in deep to truly fix their games. Love/hate kinda thing for most of us.

[Saturn Anomaly]

Originally posted by SkinGravel:

Originally posted by 1142:

This.

You can flip it and say there wouldn't be a modding community for Bethesda games without Bethesda games.

@LIghtUknown77 I can agree with the the fact that there are a sh*t ton of entitled brats who don't deserve what they think they're owed. Across the board in all of gaming, and life in general, there will always be folks who don't deserve what they think they deserve.

At the same time, don't pretend that Bethesda's lack of polish isn't a reality. It damn sure is, and always has been. They have never dug in deep to truly fix their games. Love/hate kinda thing for most of us.

No you do have a point. It sucks for everybody, honestly.