Review excerpt on Power Armor and DR

[Myll]

One of my biggest criticisms of Fallout 4, and why the Power Armor representation in the game is off the mark (besides the fact that you get it handed to you at the beginning of the game) --

- Power Armor. Not powerful. You get Power Armor right away, yet it really doesn't protect you. I modded my suit up to 45C (2 upgrades w/Armor 1 and Science 1) soon as I could, didn't use Power Armor until fully repaired and upgraded, to spare it for a trip to the city. Very disappointed - couldn't make it halfway to the city without dogs and mosquitoes biting through the suit - really? So, this suit of armor that helped fight in all-out conventional war, could not possibly stop the bite of a dog or the small stinger of a mosquito?? You really needed to work on basic Damage Reduction (DR) coding on this one. It's not about reducing damage - you should have had the Power Armors have minimum DR thresholds so no damage is received if the source is from below a certain damage point. You should be able to stand in the middle of a pack of dogs in Power Armor, and laugh at them. Instead, you've coded in DR so you slowly die in Power Armor. Silly.

[The Inept European]

Don't disagree.

[White Knight]

"The small sting of a mosquito" is your answer, right there. Armour is not designed for that, bug nets are.

The dog bites are a bit silly, granted. A raider with a pool cue is even worse.

Obviously, you don't need me to explain that this is a video game and many of these decisions are about game balance, player enjoyment... entertainment, etc. It would be a pretty stupid game if you became invulnerable the moment you put on some power armour.

[The Inept European]

It would not be a stupid game if power armour made you invulnerable to low level threats like animals and pipe weapons... IF power armour was actually hard to obtain, instead of the wasteland being littered with unguarded PA sets, often complete with fusion cores.

Making them easy to get requires nerfing them. Neither is a good game design decision.

[Myll]

Originally posted by White Knight:

"The small sting of a mosquito" is your answer, right there. Armour is not designed for that, bug nets are.

The dog bites are a bit silly, granted. A raider with a pool cue is even worse.

Obviously, you don't need me to explain that this is a video game and many of these decisions are about game balance, player enjoyment... entertainment, etc. It would be a pretty stupid game if you became invulnerable the moment you put on some power armour.

You really haven't played many games where armor types and "Damage Reduction (D/R)" are separately factored from Armor Levels. D/R worked in ways that made sense - reducing damage of types that would not penetrate or have negative effects if below a threshold. It's like you trying to fist-fight a tank. Try it. See who gets bloodied first, the dudes inside the Main Battle Tank, or your fists. See the point?
Power Armor was initially intended to offer that sort of protection, but it's been nerfed. Why don't you get radiation damage? Because it's totally sealed off and protects you from it. Similar concept as a spacesuit except armored, but as the franchise has changed hands from the beginning, and RPGs have changed for the worse, here we are with not only oversized mosquitoes causing damage, but modern gamers like you who argue for such nonsense because you and others like you don't do your gaming homework.

[Zekiran]

Or, we have the opinion that the game designers made it this way, and whether we like or dislike it, that's what we have and that thus, is canonically how power armor works.

[The Inept European]

To be honest, if you give it early and easily, you need to nerf it. So it's at least a consistent game design decision. It's different from earlier Fallouts and perhaps not most people's idea of how a mech suit would protect you, but from a game design point of view it's consistent.

To look at the positives, there is a game design positive in the player always being at risk and never being invulnerable to a whole class of threats. There is also a game design positive in there being less of a sacrifice in choosing non-PA versus always choosing PA. The game takes this same approach in other areas - for example you are not penalised for having a melee character, even though this is probably counter to 'realism', the intent is to allow a wider range of playstyles to be viable.

Also worth noting that earlier Fallouts that had [DT] on PA, also had much greater barriers on obtaining and using PA (scarcity, skill checks, etc). These were alternative ways of balancing PA. So if you want [DT] back on PA, you probably need to accept skill requirements, maybe skills that can't just be selected by the player but need to be located in quests, plus a much greater scarcity of PA and/or cores.

[The Inept European]

Originally posted by Zekiran:

Or, we have the opinion that the game designers made it this way, and whether we like or dislike it, that's what we have and that thus, is canonically how power armor works.

agreed.

[FafnirChaos]

Originally posted by The Inept European:

To be honest, if you give it early and easily, you need to nerf it. So it's at least a consistent game design decision. It's different from earlier Fallouts and perhaps not most people's idea of how a mech suit would protect you, but from a game design point of view it's consistent.

To look at the positives, there is a game design positive in the player always being at risk and never being invulnerable to a whole class of threats. There is also a game design positive in there being less of a sacrifice in choosing non-PA versus always choosing PA. The game takes this same approach in other areas - for example you are not penalised for having a melee character, even though this is probably counter to 'realism', the intent is to allow a wider range of playstyles to be viable.

Also worth noting that earlier Fallouts that had DR on PA, also had much greater barriers on obtaining and using PA (scarcity, skill checks, etc). These were alternative ways of balancing PA. So if you want DR back on PA, you probably need to accept skill requirements, maybe skills that can't just be selected by the player but need to be located in quests, plus a much greater scarcity of PA and/or cores.

I agree with what you're saying - but the nerf is already there - Power cores, they only last so long - and by the time you have collected enough of them your OP anyways - and don't even need to use something that gives you a minor upgrade in storage.

I like the power armor - as a display option in my base - but in combat I don't see a use for it

[FafnirChaos]

In order to fix power armor - you need to remove damage from melee weapons with the expection of heavy weapons like sledges. Certain bullets should just bounce off, and do minimal armor damage - while high power calibers should stun you a bit - since your getting that shock wave anyways from the bullet hitting the armor - etc.

The only animal you should be concerned about are deathclaws and behemoths - anything else shouldn't really do anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MEUOW7cERI

[The Inept European]

Originally posted by FafnirChaos:

I agree with what you're saying - but the nerf is already there - Power cores, they only last so long - and by the time you have collected enough of them your OP anyways - and don't even need to use something that gives you a minor upgrade in storage.

I like the power armor - as a display option in my base - but in combat I don't see a use for it

Power cores are a trivial balancing factor. They are a challenge only below level 10 even for a casual player. An experienced player who is determined to use PA will never experience cores as a limiting factor. It does not compensate for being given multiple suits of PA at level 1 (once you know where they are). The DR/DT nerfs are necessary or the game balance would be stupidly easy for PA players right out of the vault.

[The Inept European]

Originally posted by FafnirChaos:

In order to fix power armor - you need to remove damage from melee weapons with the expection of heavy weapons like sledges. Certain bullets should just bounce off, and do minimal armor damage - while high power calibers should stun you a bit - since your getting that shock wave anyways from the bullet hitting the armor - etc.

The only animal you should be concerned about are deathclaws and behemoths - anything else shouldn't really do anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MEUOW7cERI

I agree with this, but then you also need to make it much harder to get, operate and maintain PA.

[FafnirChaos]

Originally posted by The Inept European:

Originally posted by FafnirChaos:

I agree with what you're saying - but the nerf is already there - Power cores, they only last so long - and by the time you have collected enough of them your OP anyways - and don't even need to use something that gives you a minor upgrade in storage.

I like the power armor - as a display option in my base - but in combat I don't see a use for it

Power cores are a trivial balancing factor. They are a challenge only below level 10 even for a casual player. An experienced player who is determined to use PA will never experience cores as a limiting factor. It does not compensate for being given multiple suits of PA at level 1 (once you know where they are). The DR/DT nerfs are necessary or the game balance would be stupidly easy for PA players right out of the vault.

I find power cores being purchasable kind of stupid way to balance it as well - They should really be end game craft-able items - I'm all for having power armor whenever instead of end game stuff - because it gives you a taste of it - but I think the power core situation should be a end game recipe from either of the fractions for you to craft your own after helping them do w/e.

Buying them is just stupid - and finding them in trash cans/nuka boxes is just worse.

[Glaston]

Originally posted by FafnirChaos:

In order to fix power armor - you need to remove damage from melee weapons with the expection of heavy weapons like sledges. Certain bullets should just bounce off, and do minimal armor damage - while high power calibers should stun you a bit - since your getting that shock wave anyways from the bullet hitting the armor - etc.

The only animal you should be concerned about are deathclaws and behemoths - anything else shouldn't really do anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MEUOW7cERI

I remember that from years and years ago. There was a guy on zombiehunters.net forums that was creating a revised version to survive a zombie attack.

[wtiger27]

PA gives the player's char considerable better protection from ballistic, melee, energy and radiation than other types of armor. It does not allow you to take no damage however. Esp. poison. Hazmat suits offer better radiation protection. Just don't get hit by anything else. :P

Look at the protection stat numbers when you are in Power Armor versus not. It's basic math. Not only the stats, but experience should teach you that.

You can survive hits better in a X-01 versus a T-45. Why? Check the stat protection numbers differences. :P

[FafnirChaos]

Originally posted by wtiger27:

PA gives the player's char considerable better protection from ballistic, melee, energy and radiation than other types of armor. It does not allow you to take no damage however. Esp. poison. Hazmat suits offer better radiation protection. Just don't get hit by anything else. :P

Look at the protection stat numbers when you are in Power Armor versus not. It's basic math. Not only the stats, but experience should teach you that.

You can survive hits better in a X-01 versus a T-45. Why? Check the stat protection numbers differences. :P

The problem with that specifically is a realistic approach to the power armor itself - That video I presented is a Massive downgrade towards power armor - yet in terms of protection - it's more powerful.

Using meds is more powerful then using power armor - so if we look at this through a realistic approach being a drug addict makes you more powerful then being in heavy armor that requires an exosuit to hoist.

Power armor should be - I'm about to F your day up - as opposed to - oh boy I better hide in this corner to reduce damage from incoming attacks - It should be 100% end game fun. Instead it's a liability. - and a costly one at that.