The Leveling System is Boring

[Diarrhea Dan]

Back in Fallout 3, there were perks that helped increase your skills; now, these were pretty useless, they were numbers perks that did nothing more then change numbers you could otherwise change yourself with a bit more points into intelligence. These sorts of number perks were bad, they were fluff, they were boring.

I have to ask why in Fallout 4, these boring type of perks were made main stay, mandatory, for players in order to properly advance in the game. It doesn't feel good to look at all these perks, then sigh, and force yourself to put a perk into one of the weapons perk tree in order for your damage to stay relevant. Worse of all, I hate putting perks into melee because knocking weapons out of gun wielding enemies' hands makes them harder to kill; without a gun, they can now block my swings, its horrible. Character progression in Fallout 4 feels like crap, for the same reason every second level in New Vegas felt like crap because all it did was increase your numbers rather then give you cool ass perks to bend the laws of the game with. Numbers are boring, I hate having to pick between the cool perks and numbers perks when I advance; it doesn't feel like progression, it feels like something I should get when I level up automatically rather then being forced to choose.

Bethesda actually went backwards and made the character progression worse with this system by completely removing skills; if I wanted to make my guns or melee weapons hit harder, I'd pour some numbers into my numbers (skill points into skills) and then use the perk I got that level up to get something cool, like Jury Rig or Nerd Rage instead of being forced to use a perk to get numbers. The game actually penalizes you for not dumping perks to increase your numbers, with enemies scaling with your level while all you get is a health boost; the level requirements as well make character progression annoying. I just hope this perks only system isn't transferred in some way to Elder Scrolls; I think Skyrim got a good balance of perks and skills, though it also committed the horrible sin of number perks alongside skills also improving damage. I think the perfect system would be skills properly scaling up damage and perks being reserved for cool stuff that effect the game in interesting ways; if it comes to balance, while annoying, putting a level cap on skill thresholds could prevent imbalance.

Character progression in Falllout 4 just doesn't feel rewarding most of the time and I groan every time when putting perks into numbers rather then getting cool stuff.

[Pancakes]

If you think this is bad, stay off oblivion.
Beth has always been bad with making cool perks. They are hardly anything cool with thier leveling.

[Emilio]

I like the new perks in all honesty. The problem with uniqe perks is that some will always be better then others becoming ''mandetory'' I rather upppgrade one type of weapon perk and getting some bonuses rather then one perk that just ups and gives me something weird or maybe even game breaking abilitys.

[Sentient_Toaster]

...and forging iron daggers in Skyrim to level up smithing wasn't mind-numbingly boring?

[Pancakes]

Originally posted by Sentient_Toaster:

...and forging iron daggers in Skyrim to level up smithing wasn't mind-numbingly boring?

That was fixed in a patch so dame long ago.
Now you make rings and necklances.

[MaximumEffort]

Originally posted by Sentient_Toaster:

...and forging iron daggers in Skyrim to level up smithing wasn't mind-numbingly boring?

Lether helm/gloves. Far less cost expensive and more available resource.

Anyway, I like F4 leveling. No senseless skills (1int/100science logic astounds), just perks relative to your stats - the way it always should've been

[76561198281163556]

FALLOUT 4 IS PERFECT. GO AWAY. WE DONT NEED LVL CP AND POINTLESS SKILLS.

[loverevolutionary]

As an old school pencil and paper RPG player, when computer RPG games started going the perk tree route instead of the skill level route, I didn't like it much. But the more I play games that use a perk tree, the more I like it. If it is done sensibly, and allows you to customize your character in meaningful ways that lead to different styles of play, then it is doing what it is supposed to do.

Most of the perks that "add numbers" also give you "cool stuff" when you level them far enough. Like Strong Back, the first two points just add numbers, but then you get "run while overloaded" and "fast travel while overloaded." Unarmed gives you a disarm and paralyze ability. Melee adds "hit everything in front of you."

The fact that you can, for example, start with 9 strength and 9 agility and take Rooted and Blitz right off the bat, encourages players to differentiate their characters in the early and mid game, when it really means something that you are, say, a melee specialist or a sneaky sniper. Late game, with any system I have seen, you can get good at almost everything, and you aren't worried about getting killed all the time. So all characters start to look the same.

[Råb!d]

Check out NexusMods.com as there are some mods that do much of what you're suggesting.

[Bansheebutt]

Originally posted by sjrekis:

(1int/100science logic astounds),

If that was your problem with it than a better solution would be to cap (or increase the amount of SP it takes to increase) skills based on their governing attribute.

There are a hundred ways the previous skill system could have been improved, made more interesting and complex but somehow Bethesda went the exact opposite route.

Personally, I don't see how someone with 2 perception can become a master Rifleman, as is the case in FO4.

Originally posted by loverevolutionary:

Most of the perks that "add numbers" also give you "cool stuff" when you level them far enough. Like Strong Back, the first two points just add numbers, but then you get "run while overloaded" and "fast travel while overloaded." Unarmed gives you a disarm and paralyze ability. Melee adds "hit everything in front of you."

This would be fine, but those abilties are arbitrarly Level-Gated to the higher rank versions of the Unarmed/Strong Back perks.

It would have been a lot better if those nuances were seperate perks that you didn't have to gain 20 levels to get, because I can understand why the Damage Buffs would be level-gated because of the way the World-Scaling works.

[Pancakes]

Originally posted by loverevolutionary:

As an old school pencil and paper RPG player, when computer RPG games started going the perk tree route instead of the skill level route, I didn't like it much. But the more I play games that use a perk tree, the more I like it. If it is done sensibly, and allows you to customize your character in meaningful ways that lead to different styles of play, then it is doing what it is supposed to do.

Most of the perks that "add numbers" also give you "cool stuff" when you level them far enough. Like Strong Back, the first two points just add numbers, but then you get "run while overloaded" and "fast travel while overloaded." Unarmed gives you a disarm and paralyze ability. Melee adds "hit everything in front of you."

The fact that you can, for example, start with 9 strength and 9 agility and take Rooted and Blitz right off the bat, encourages players to differentiate their characters in the early and mid game, when it really means something that you are, say, a melee specialist or a sneaky sniper. Late game, with any system I have seen, you can get good at almost everything, and you aren't worried about getting killed all the time. So all characters start to look the same.

I agree, a really good perk system can render a skill system useless if done right. In fact, perks can enrich gameplay greatly.

[MaximumEffort]

Originally posted by Bansheebot:

Originally posted by sjrekis:

(1int/100science logic astounds),

If that was your problem with it than a better solution would be to cap (or increase the amount of SP it takes to increase) skills based on their governing attribute.

There are a hundred ways the previous skill system could have been improved, made more interesting and complex but somehow Bethesda went the exact opposite route.

Personally, I don't see how someone with 2 perception can become a master Rifleman, as is the case in FO4.

10 Luck!

[The Guermo]

My biggest problem is in Fallout 3, you put a couple of points in special, you go pick a perk, you see something you really like you go back change the numbers a bit and boom! you got a sweet new perk, here, I need to get like the jetpack or get better armr for my power armor, and I have to spend 4 levels, getting science to Lvl 4, then armorer to 4 and then I still need to get blacksmith to upgrade the arms, so thats 12 levels dedicated just to crafting power armor. There are too many prerequisites, if you want to do anything with the settlements you need to have charisma of 4 or 5 so why even give us a choice, why couldn't it be either strength or charisma that unlocks that since there are leaders that just rule by strength and fear like everyone else in the commonwealth.

[AvatarOfWar]

I don't mind that they tried to improve the system in FO3/NV compared to FO4.... I just mind that they did it wrong. There were many skills in FO3 where their only use was to get it to the next "level" where you could do more with it. Lockpicking for example was only useful to have at 25, 50, 75 or 100, which is no different than 4 ranks of a perk. Weapon skills are where this change made no sense, because weapon skills also affected accuracy, and there is no equivalent in FO4 anymore. As soon as you leave the vault, VATS starts showing you incredibly high accuracy numbers with your 10mm. I mean sure, you're supposedly ex-military, but thats beside the point. The perk in FO4 only controls damage, not accuracy.

Even if it might take a couple more years, someone will eventually make a mod to reintroduce skills alongside perks. Just wait for that. :)