Lets talk about Dima. Is this guy good or evil? Or just a machine.(Spoilers)

[Sea Prince Gillywix]

One of the things I really want to know that will help me determine if this guy is really evil or not. What was the original Captain Avery like when she was alive? I ask this because I don't doubt that most people would agree Tektus shouldn't be in power. So replacing him with a synth doesn't seem like all that bad of at least as a temporary measure. Synths don't age so something would need to be done about both his and Avery's replacement before Far Harbor and the Children of Atom got wind of this. If Captain Avery was anything like Tektus then Avery's death and replacement may have been justified. But if Avery mostly innocent then Dima committed murder. Plain and simple. There is also moral issue issue many may be overlooking with Dima's plan.

Dima cannot creat synths. Dima says when you go with his plan to replace Tektus but destroy Far Harbor anyway that he sacrificed one of his own for no reason now. This means that when he replaces Tektus he is doing something to one of his synths that could be considered an atrocity depending how it works. The questions is:
1. Are they doing it con-sensually.
2. Is it a form of mind wiping?
3. Is it a necessary evil for the greater good?
4. Does it even matter if synths are just machines anyway?

Then there is also the Sole Survivor. How many lives have we killed for the greater good anyway? Many without thinking carefully. I guess this depends on how the person playing is. Dima actions and his very existence even raises so many questions.

[Xenon The Noble]

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

Unlike super mutants, we don't see any Children trying to spike us point-blank with a mini nuke, and even when one has an entire arsenal like at the Sentinel Site, they sit unused.

They don't need to spike SS with a mini-nuke. Those radiation guns of theirs are quite effective enough on humans - something like 200 damage and rapid fire, compared to a mini-nuke's one shot 500 points of damage. Those rad guns are good for nothing but killing heretics.
If you go to Sentinel Site Prescott, you'll find a COA trying to launch a nuclear weapon.

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

Originally posted by Xenon The Noble:

Wait.. you're saying Avery is not working DiMA's agenda? Then why bother sacrificing a synth and murder Avery. That doesn't make sense. Synth Avery is PROGRAMMED to follow DiMA's agenda.

In DiMA's own words, she provides a moderate voice and a good example (a contrast to violent hotheads like Allen Lee):

"I needed to calm Far Harbor. A moderate voice. An example of what humanity should be. How we could exist together as equals.

But I couldn't live with the memories of the blood on my hands. A human and a synth are both gone because of me.

Avery represents the ideals DiMA favours, but is more than just a puppet (which is soundly prevented by neither of them being aware of any association). She's there to provide the voice of reason, and it's not just pro-synth; she also speaks for the other side of the issue when we hear Allen ranting about the Children of Atom.

Synth Avery is programmed to provide DiMA's leadership. That's why he didn't replace the Mariner or Cassie Dalton. DiMA targeted the leader not just to have a "voice" but to control.
DiMA is propagandizing. Of course he views his point of view as "moderate", but given that a synth has taken over control of Far Harbor, it would seem the human Avery was justified in allowing the distrust of synths.

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

Originally posted by Xenon The Noble:

Good thing that SS dug them up too, since DiMA was planning to destroy Far Harbor and make himself king of the island by putting a stooge synth in charge of the Children of Atom as well.

DiMA's goal is to have everyone get along, which is idealistic, maybe even naive, but not malignant.

Of course, personally I think him helping both sides wasn't a smart move, since without the the fog condensers the Harbourmen would be forced to face reality and find a better place to live instead of clinging to the past. The Island is a great place for the Children (at least the ones with Atom's blessing to let them enjoy the radiation), but more like a slow death for regular humans.

You could even argue that you'd get much the same result if DiMA had just left it entirely alone. But he's too sappy to just let nature take its course with the Harbourmen.

The COA death cult that ruthlessly kills even their own people. DiMA chooses the death cult over humans. Yes, Alan Lee is probably not right that the COA causes the fog to get worse BUT Alan Lee is right about the cult's murderous intent. Of course the COA and the heretics at Far Harbor are not going to get along! Killing Heretics is part of the COA's religion. DiMA can't fix that, not even by replacing their leader with someone he's programmed to control the COA. There are other high mucky-mucks in the COA that are homicidal fanatics too.

[Sea Prince Gillywix]

Originally posted by Xenon The Noble:

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

Unlike super mutants, we don't see any Children trying to spike us point-blank with a mini nuke, and even when one has an entire arsenal like at the Sentinel Site, they sit unused.

They don't need to spike SS with a mini-nuke. Those radiation guns of theirs are quite effective enough on humans - something like 200 damage and rapid fire, compared to a mini-nuke's one shot 500 points of damage. Those rad guns are good for nothing but killing heretics.
If you go to Sentinel Site Prescott, you'll find a COA trying to launch a nuclear weapon.

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

In DiMA's own words, she provides a moderate voice and a good example (a contrast to violent hotheads like Allen Lee):

"I needed to calm Far Harbor. A moderate voice. An example of what humanity should be. How we could exist together as equals.

But I couldn't live with the memories of the blood on my hands. A human and a synth are both gone because of me.

Avery represents the ideals DiMA favours, but is more than just a puppet (which is soundly prevented by neither of them being aware of any association). She's there to provide the voice of reason, and it's not just pro-synth; she also speaks for the other side of the issue when we hear Allen ranting about the Children of Atom.

Synth Avery is programmed to provide DiMA's leadership. That's why he didn't replace the Mariner or Cassie Dalton. DiMA targeted the leader not just to have a "voice" but to control.
DiMA is propagandizing. Of course he views his point of view as "moderate", but given that a synth has taken over control of Far Harbor, it would seem the human Avery was justified in allowing the distrust of synths.

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

DiMA's goal is to have everyone get along, which is idealistic, maybe even naive, but not malignant.

Of course, personally I think him helping both sides wasn't a smart move, since without the the fog condensers the Harbourmen would be forced to face reality and find a better place to live instead of clinging to the past. The Island is a great place for the Children (at least the ones with Atom's blessing to let them enjoy the radiation), but more like a slow death for regular humans.

You could even argue that you'd get much the same result if DiMA had just left it entirely alone. But he's too sappy to just let nature take its course with the Harbourmen.

The COA death cult that ruthlessly kills even their own people. DiMA chooses the death cult over humans. Yes, Alan Lee is probably not right that the COA causes the fog to get worse BUT Alan Lee is right about the cult's murderous intent. Of course the COA and the heretics at Far Harbor are not going to get along! Killing Heretics is part of the COA's religion. DiMA can't fix that, not even by replacing their leader with someone he's programmed to control the COA. There are other high mucky-mucks in the COA that are homicidal fanatics too.

I think the notion that Dima is using Avery to control far harbor doesn't work because Avery sort of operates independently and Dima willingly gave up his contingency plans.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by Xenon The Noble:

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

Unlike super mutants, we don't see any Children trying to spike us point-blank with a mini nuke, and even when one has an entire arsenal like at the Sentinel Site, they sit unused.

They don't need to spike SS with a mini-nuke. Those radiation guns of theirs are quite effective enough on humans - something like 200 damage and rapid fire, compared to a mini-nuke's one shot 500 points of damage. Those rad guns are good for nothing but killing heretics.
If you go to Sentinel Site Prescott, you'll find a COA trying to launch a nuclear weapon.

The Sentinel Site appears to be just using a pre-war trigger and I'm not sure it even had an obvious launch path, while there's a whole room full of nuclear ordinance right in the basement that the Child of Atom there hasn't touched.

As for the guns, while they cause radiation damage, they don't off a prospect for division, which a mini nuke is at least vaguely approaching. We never see any of the Children actively attempt division on their own, with even the Nucleus with a ready-made device requiring a push from us to convince Tektus who is already a radical.

Originally posted by Xenon The Noble:

Synth Avery is programmed to provide DiMA's leadership. That's why he didn't replace the Mariner or Cassie Dalton. DiMA targeted the leader not just to have a "voice" but to control.

There is no sign of Avery doing anything more than just being more open and accepting of others. DiMA placed someone with a sympathetic viewpoint, but he doesn't have any control over what Avery does from there.

Originally posted by Xenon The Noble:

DiMA is propagandizing. Of course he views his point of view as "moderate", but given that a synth has taken over control of Far Harbor, it would seem the human Avery was justified in allowing the distrust of synths.

There's more reason to be distrustful of the Harbourmen themselves, given one of them is openly a murderer, another lies to us about her revenge, and the place in general is full of people who disrespect the Mariner who gave them shelter.

These are also the people who want to murder the entire Acadian community even when DiMA takes sole responsibility for his actions. And you can't talk them out of it by just being a normal person who would realize that's wrong, you have to have played buddy-buddy with enough of them to leverage your opinion, like they owe you.

Originally posted by Xenon The Noble:

The COA death cult that ruthlessly kills even their own people. DiMA chooses the death cult over humans. Yes, Alan Lee is probably not right that the COA causes the fog to get worse BUT Alan Lee is right about the cult's murderous intent.

DiMA doesn't choose anyone over anyone else. He supports both sides.

As for Allen Lee, he was murderously hostile not to the radicalized Children that have been worked up under Tektus (in large part because of how they were ostracized and had their preachers murdered) but to them back under Martin's leadership. The Children were originally happy to live in Far Harbour, since some of them were Harbourmen in the first place.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by Sea Prince Gillywix:

I think the notion that Dima is using Avery to control far harbor doesn't work because Avery sort of operates independently and Dima willingly gave up his contingency plans.

Yep, if DiMA wanted control there's no reason to make Avery unaware of her own nature or to place any restrictions on himself, since only he was aware of his secret contingency plans.

And why stop with Avery? It's the same thing with the Institute back in the Commonwealth (who aren't as benign as DiMA, but still don't care about controlling wastelanders); there's years of time free for anyone who wanted control to go replacing everyone one by one, and it just doesn't happen.

[jumpinjas]

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

Originally posted by Sea Prince Gillywix:

I think the notion that Dima is using Avery to control far harbor doesn't work because Avery sort of operates independently and Dima willingly gave up his contingency plans.

Yep, if DiMA wanted control there's no reason to make Avery unaware of her own nature or to place any restrictions on himself, since only he was aware of his secret contingency plans.

And why stop with Avery? It's the same thing with the Institute back in the Commonwealth (who aren't as benign as DiMA, but still don't care about controlling wastelanders); there's years of time free for anyone who wanted control to go replacing everyone one by one, and it just doesn't happen.

Yeah I didnt get the sense that Avery was directly "controlled" by Dima, more that he changed her personality to be more sympathetic to synths, and to favour more peaceful options.

That's one thing I never really got a clear answer on with the institute, what were their long-term goals with creating human synths? They looking to become Cylons? Or was it just a means of controlling the population through fear? If anyone could be a synth, they can be activated at any time, and only the Institute can tell/&/or control them, we must trust/obey the institute... right?

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by jumpinjas:

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

Yep, if DiMA wanted control there's no reason to make Avery unaware of her own nature or to place any restrictions on himself, since only he was aware of his secret contingency plans.

And why stop with Avery? It's the same thing with the Institute back in the Commonwealth (who aren't as benign as DiMA, but still don't care about controlling wastelanders); there's years of time free for anyone who wanted control to go replacing everyone one by one, and it just doesn't happen.

Yeah I didnt get the sense that Avery was directly "controlled" by Dima, more that he changed her personality to be more sympathetic to synths, and to favour more peaceful options.

That's one thing I never really got a clear answer on with the institute, what were their long-term goals with creating human synths? They looking to become Cylons? Or was it just a means of controlling the population through fear? If anyone could be a synth, they can be activated at any time, and only the Institute can tell/&/or control them, we must trust/obey the institute... right?

As I understand it, the Gen 3 synths (which I assume is what you mean here) are just the next step in the development of humanoid servants that began with Gen 1. When they hit the limits of what they could do with robotic mechanisms, the Institute simply transitioned to synthetic flesh.

The Gen 3 synths are general servants to the Institute, and just like Gen 1 and Gen 2, their main function is doing all the tedious and dangerous work. Being so humanlike, they're also useful for espionage on the surface, but that's only a minor usage because there aren't that many places the Institute really cares about enough.

See, the Institute doesn't want to control the surface. When they really want something, they just openly send in a force of Gen 1 and 2 synths, and could have easily taken over the Commonwealth that way decades ago (in fact, this was tabled as a proposal in their history, but was rejected). But they simply don't care. Because why would they want control of filthy wastelanders when they already have Gen 3 synths?

In the few cases where the Institute sends Gen 3 infiltrators, what they're after is information, rather than control. They're used when they want to observe a situation without disturbing it.

[Sea Prince Gillywix]

Originally posted by jumpinjas:

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

Yep, if DiMA wanted control there's no reason to make Avery unaware of her own nature or to place any restrictions on himself, since only he was aware of his secret contingency plans.

And why stop with Avery? It's the same thing with the Institute back in the Commonwealth (who aren't as benign as DiMA, but still don't care about controlling wastelanders); there's years of time free for anyone who wanted control to go replacing everyone one by one, and it just doesn't happen.

Yeah I didnt get the sense that Avery was directly "controlled" by Dima, more that he changed her personality to be more sympathetic to synths, and to favour more peaceful options.

That's one thing I never really got a clear answer on with the institute, what were their long-term goals with creating human synths? They looking to become Cylons? Or was it just a means of controlling the population through fear? If anyone could be a synth, they can be activated at any time, and only the Institute can tell/&/or control them, we must trust/obey the institute... right?

I believe the institute wanted to use them for all kinds of things. They can do basically everything a human can and more.

[eMYNOCK]

Gen 3 are Blank slate Clones, artificial born humans.
they breath, eat... have to relieve them self... and according to Far Harbor Canibals there is no difference between a normal Human and a Synth...

They would only have noticed a difference if they actually had also consumed that poor Synths Head.

one measurable difference... they seem to have an extraordinary immune system and regenerative properties... so much in fact that they are ageless... their cells do not inherent the minor errors upon division that we call aging.

[globefish23]

Originally posted by eMYNOCK:

they breath, eat... have to relieve them self...

According to Max Loken of the Institute, Gen3 synths do not need to eat and drink at all to function.
This is contradicted by Curie when she's in her synth body, who says she needs to eat and drink.
Also, Binet mentions that Gen3 synths have a craving for Fancy Lads Snacks.

Furthermore, a synthetic human, which is a fully organic organism, not needing to eat is against all chemical and thermodynamic pricnciples and completely dumps on the sci-fi core of the game.
The writer definitely messed that up.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by globefish23:

Originally posted by eMYNOCK:

they breath, eat... have to relieve them self...

According to Max Loken of the Institute, Gen3 synths do not need to eat and drink at all to function.
This is contradicted by Curie when she's in her synth body, who says she needs to eat and drink.
Also, Binet mentions that Gen3 synths have a craving for Fancy Lads Snacks.

Furthermore, a synthetic human, which is a fully organic organism, not needing to eat is against all chemical and thermodynamic pricnciples and completely dumps on the sci-fi core of the game.
The writer definitely messed that up.

Curie could well just feel the need to eat and drink, since we have from the description of McDonough the implication that synths can have physical limitations that are induced, rather than real.


We're not given any information on how Gen 3 synths could power themselves (especially when the only known special component in their design is FEV), but this is the same universe with both radiation-powered ghouls and legitimate psychic powers, so it's not unthinkable that the same scientists who built a matter-energy teleporter found an extraordinary way to supply power.

[globefish23]

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

We're not given any information on how Gen 3 synths could power themselves (especially when the only known special component in their design is FEV), but this is the same universe with both radiation-powered ghouls and legitimate psychic powers, so it's not unthinkable that the same scientists who built a matter-energy teleporter found an extraordinary way to supply power.

The difference is, the radiation is a source of power.
In Gen3 synths, everything is completely organic, indiscernible from normal humans.
Very doubtful that it could supply the approximately 2000-2500 kcal out of nowhere, without any noticable difference.
Unless its some Elder Scrolls magic seeping in.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by globefish23:

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

We're not given any information on how Gen 3 synths could power themselves (especially when the only known special component in their design is FEV), but this is the same universe with both radiation-powered ghouls and legitimate psychic powers, so it's not unthinkable that the same scientists who built a matter-energy teleporter found an extraordinary way to supply power.

The difference is, the radiation is a source of power.
In Gen3 synths, everything is completely organic, indiscernible from normal humans.
Very doubtful that it could supply the approximately 2000-2500 kcal out of nowhere, without any noticable difference.
Unless its some Elder Scrolls magic seeping in.

Or they've found a way to incorporate some function we just don't know about, like using the matter-energy conversion they do for teleportation on a micro-scale.

We already know that the idea of Gen 3 synths being indiscernible isn't an absolute. If we credit it as correct like the statements about their food needs, then both cannot be universally true, and we already know that both the synth component (when it's present) and the recall code can easily distinguish a synth from a natural human. The idea of them being indistinguishable is thus a generalization; it's broadly true that they can't be distinguished, but it's not outright impossible given the right knowledge or means of examination.

[eMYNOCK]

lets theorize a bit...

who said that a synth needs 2000 to 2500 kcal a day?
what if they only require a fraction of that? 200 - 250 ... or 20 to 25?
they could go for weeks... propbaly month... on a single fancy lads... and what they don't need gets expelled... the old fashioned way.

as synth don't get fat they obviouls are unable to story extra energy for later use...

also.. they are used for human medical trials... if they would not resemble human body functions and immune responses as close as possible than every trial conducted on them would be worthless to begin with.

regarding their synth component... is it just a game mechanic that gives members of species synth a component, is it in everyone?
we do not know.
we only know that synth with that component pick the wrong answer when doing the SAFE near Covenant... nothing about those that don't have one... left allone.. nothing about what a Courser would pick.

[DouglasGrave]

Originally posted by eMYNOCK:

regarding their synth component... is it just a game mechanic that gives members of species synth a component, is it in everyone?
we do not know.

In terms of game mechanics, it is not present in all of them by any means, but of course we don't know whether that's simply presentation or not.

Originally posted by eMYNOCK:

we only know that synth with that component pick the wrong answer when doing the SAFE near Covenant... nothing about those that don't have one... left allone.. nothing about what a Courser would pick.

And getting any synths at all may be purely chance, since they have no apparent check on the negatives at all since they simply let those people go on their way.

With no idea of the number of total synths in their sample, it's small wonder that their test has substantially more false positives than accurate results.

[eMYNOCK]

exactly... and even our Topic Synth him self states... there is no way to determine if someone is a synth or not... without killing the being in question.
and for him, the use of a recall code is aparently equal to murder.