Why do Institute Laser Rifles Suck So Much?

[WolfHound]

They're supposed to have the best technology in all of the commonwealth, so why is their weapons technology so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ average? They're only marginally better than standard laser rifles.

My fully upgraded anti-material rifle still does more damage than any fully upgraded Institute sniper rifle. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the most powerful gun in all of Fallout 4 is the BFG9000, a gimmick, an energy weapon that doesn't even exist in the Fallout universe. Why?

[Deklend]

Originally posted by The Inept European:

Originally posted by Deklend:

while many people are giving you lore reasons, the technical reason is that laser weapons do energy damage which is the most common resistance type in the game(due to consolidating fire, ice, electric, laser, and half of plasma into just energy) and resistances weren't taken into account when the weapons team input damage values, so roughly half the damage is negated right out of the gate with most energy weapons, though this "feature" doesn't seem to affect the gatling laser, bumping up to arguably the best non-legendary weapon in the game.

Then for the Institute Laser specifically, it does less damage than other laser weapons but has a faster fire rate and doesn't negate stealth...so in comparison to other laser weapons it's balanced.

Not sure what you mean by "energy resistance is the most common in the game"? Generally in the base game ER is lower than DR, though that largely reverses in Far Harbor.

In what way do you think non- Institute lasers are unbalanced and Institute lasers are more balanced?

Most common doesn't equate to "higher or lower", it means more mobs in the game have energy resistance than do ballistic.

And I didn't say that Institute lasers are more balanced than non-institute versions, I said they're balanced in comparison to other laser weapons, but laser weapons on the whole are weak, again because pretty much every mob in the game has ER while not every mob in the game has DR.

This is a topic which has been discussed quite a bit and googling "Why are energy weapons weak in Fallout 4" will bring up many many topics from here on the steam forums and the reddit which maths it all out.

[WolfHound]

Originally posted by The Inept European:

From a game design point of view (as well as the Institute's internal logic) you don't want powerful lasers falling in to the players hands too easily. Synths are soft targets. BoS groups usually have ag least one PA user, so they are harder to take out and scavenge from.

(Though looting their dead should be seen as a hostile act).

G1s are trash villains and trash villains need trash weapons. Or at least, weapons the player can't easily or effectively scavenge.
.

There is a very simple yet very technologically advanced solution to that: when your weapons fall into the wrong hands, they either disintegrate or they blow up.

[skamtebord]

I dunno man. I anyway just stole Virgil's rifle and modified it to be max damage. (due to its legendary perk) I anyway gonna use it as super mutant weakener. nothing else. I got chests FULL of spare institute rifles. I dont need them but either I dont need to dispose of them (no metal, just plastic)

[Xenon The Noble]

give your settlers institute rifles. They're going to win anyway, and as long as they're armed and have one fusion cell they'll leave the good stuff alone.

[Fumo Bnnuy n Frends]

Originally posted by The Inept European:

For example if their lasers were *rechargeable* rather than using any expendable ammo (cells or cores). That would fit with materials conservation and make them less useful when captured by most enemies.

Also would stop anti-Institute missions being the main way to gain a small fortune worth of fusion cells.

exactly what i was thinking

they had em in NV why not in 4


the only issue is again as someone else said they're mostly for security purposes. Their real strengths are in their armor and numbers. Since they're underground they don't ever deal with people. They always send in synth people to do their dirty work.

Though lacking in resources i can see how rechargeable energy weapons would be extremely useful.

At best maybe their weapons have highly advanced attachments.



but again they're not at war. They p much just use the weapons as a last resort. They've shown to be more persuasion and ignoring people. In the end even the message of just leave us alone and we'll leave you alone that echos through the CW

[The Inept European]

Originally posted by Deklend:

Originally posted by The Inept European:

Not sure what you mean by "energy resistance is the most common in the game"? Generally in the base game ER is lower than DR, though that largely reverses in Far Harbor.

Most common doesn't equate to "higher or lower", it means more mobs in the game have energy resistance than do ballistic.

That doesn't make sense. All actors in the game have both DR and ER. The only thing that would make sense is to say "DR is typically lower than ER". Except the reverse is true (except in Far Harbor).

[The Inept European]

Originally posted by Deklend:

This is a topic which has been discussed quite a bit and googling "Why are energy weapons weak in Fallout 4" will bring up many many topics from here on the steam forums and the reddit which maths it all out.

I'm well aware of those discussions. However they have nothing to do with ER being generally higher, let alone ER being "more common". (whatever that means). The issues with energy weapons being weak is because they don't properly use various damage buffs that ballistic weapons all use correctly.

[The Inept European]

Originally posted by Deklend:

laser weapons do energy damage which is the most common resistance type in the game <snip> and resistances weren't taken into account when the weapons team input damage values, so roughly half the damage is negated right out of the gate with most energy weapons,

Sorry but this is just wrong.

Half the damage would be "lost out of the gate" IF the ER of most targets was equal to the DMG most energy weapons. That's how ER/DR works And that would only be relevant to an unfavourable comparison with ballistic weapons IF most creatures had higher DR than ER (they don't) or most ballistic weapons had higher DMG than most energy weapons (which as a generalisation they don't, though you can find specific examples of course).

So no this is not a coherent or correct statement of how the combat mechanics work or of why lasers are weaker.

Case in point if we swapped Institute lasers for Institute ballistic guns with identical stats they would be almost exactly as weak (in Institute hands). Weaker perhaps, since DR is typically higher than ER. So no, the reason they are weak is not because they are lasers.

Lasers are weak, Institute lasers are weak, but Institute lasers are not weak because they are lasers. They are weak because they have poor stats. And in turn that is for the lore reasons and/or game design reasons discussed in this thread.

[fmalfeas]

It always messes with me that lasers are weak in a /fallout/. Because the original three games (not fallout 3) the lasers and plasma weapons were terrifyingly powerful. The only conventional weapon that was as deadly was the rocket launcher. In fallout 2, the gauss rifle and gauss pistol gave a ballistic equivalent for lethality. And for fighting power armored enemies, you *really* wanted plasma, electrical (the YK pulse weapons) or to put a gauss round to their eyes.

[The Inept European]

Originally posted by DouglasGrave:

Originally posted by WolfHound:

That sounds so small-minded that it is almost borderline retarded for the Institute. Are they really so stupid and arrogant enough to think that no one can touch them? No one at all? I guess thats why you can side with the BoS or the Railroad or the Raiders, to prove that the Institute is not untouchable.

If it wasn't for the Sole Survivor, the Institute would have remained just as untouchable as they thought. And they still needed help from Virgil, who came from the Institute himself. And even then, they only got back out because Father favours the Sole Survivor; anyone else would have been shot dead by synths once they got inside.

It's not that the Institute isn't arrogant, but their arrogance isn't without reason when it comes to their defenses. The only reason other factions have a hope to get at them is because there's a plot-induced train tunnel running straight through their defenses.

Douglas is right about the plot train.

Consider the odds of SS entering the Institute *even if Father is helping them* :

SS needs to survive at least far as getting to DC and springing Nick (through a wall of gangsters).

SS needs to locate and neutralise Kellogg (kill, capture or turn), through a wall of synths, *before* Kellogg executes his current mission to terminate Virgil. This is time-critical.

SS needs to make it through the Glowing Sea alive and somehow locate Virgil. They then need to not kill Virgil, or be killed by him / his defences. Virgil then needs to (1) have some kind of key into the Institute and (2) has to be persuaded to hand it over. (The "I forgot the antidote" thing is ludicrous - Virgil had months or at least weeks to plan his escape. A better motive would be "Father/the Institute must be stopped").

(Reaching Virgil is also time-critical because he is losing his mind and turning mentally into a supermutant).

Then SS needs to get back alive and find faction assistance to carry out the plan, and take down a courser who single handedly wipes out Gunners in (company) strength in their own fortified building, and get faction assistance to decrypt that. And SS needs a faction who trust them enough that they will send them alone to the Institute with no orders or restrictions other than to run the scan tape, and not even an exit plan let alone any reasonable expectation SS won't just be killed on sight.

Incredibly slim odds even if Father is guiding this. And if Father wants to see SS why not just teleport SS direct to the Institute in the first place? Even after the "experiment" why this million-to-one longshot, 30-step "plan". Why not "ok my parent has survived the wasteland and is a badass, beam them in for a nice chat now". Or send a couple of synths with an offer SS can't refuse - "come with us to meet your child."

The whole issue of a "Signal Interceptor" existing is also very problematic. The Institute would have no need for one. It is essentially a hack through their single most important, existentially important, tech. Even if they designed it in a "Red Team" exercise it would literally be their most closely guarded secret. (For example they rightly suspect they have spies amongst them working against them).

Virgil is from Bioscience, not Advanced Physics. It's stretching credibility that he would even have a schematic *related* to the teleportation system, let alone a schematic of how to hack that system, let alone could he have designed that hack himself.

It would have been more credible if Vigil just had a stolen schematic of the nor mal teleporter, and then it took the *combined* efforts of the other 3 factions to come up with a design for a hack, obtain a valid encryption key, and build the device.

And guess what, those factions might actually attach some rational conditions to their assistance, and want some influence about how the device was used.

[The Inept European]

Like if you are the BoS, Maxxson's BoS anyway, you would just send a nuke through the teleporter. Job done.

And if you are the MM, maybe the same. Since Preston's MM apparently believe the Institute needs to be nuked.

And, for reasons that make even less sense, so apparently does the RR, so yes a better plan even for the RR would be just to a teleport a nuke into the Institute.

They ALL know this is their first, last, one and only shot to get inside the Institute, and they send YOU? Some rando outsider? For what?

None of the factions EVEN HAVE A PLAN for *their* one and only shot at The Institute apart from "get some info - we have no idea what - then get out - we have no idea how".

At the very least, to impose *your* personal agenda on the faction(s) who make this possible, you should have to kill them all. Or at least, idk, pass a persuasion check with some plausible dialog line about why it's a good idea to send the rando outsider, instead of one of their own, or a big fat ticking nuke with a very short fuse.

[Xenon The Noble]

Originally posted by The Inept European:

Like if you are the BoS, Maxxson's BoS anyway, you would just send a nuke through the teleporter. Job done.

And if you are the MM, maybe the same. Since Preston's MM apparently believe the Institute needs to be nuked.

And, for reasons that make even less sense, so apparently does the RR, so yes a better plan even for the RR would be just to a teleport a nuke into the Institute.

They ALL know this is their first, last, one and only shot to get inside the Institute, and they send YOU? Some rando outsider? For what?

None of the factions EVEN HAVE A PLAN for *their* one and only shot at The Institute apart from "get some info - we have no idea what - then get out - we have no idea how".

At the very least, to impose *your* personal agenda on the faction(s) who make this possible, you should have to kill them all. Or at least, idk, pass a persuasion check with some plausible dialog line about why it's a good idea to send the rando outsider, instead of one of their own, or a big fat ticking nuke with a very short fuse.

Now this is food for thought... I didn't think from the faction leader's point of view! Their actions make no sense at all. Send some useful idiot on what has to be a suicide mission, as they're sure that the Institute is the ultimate evil would be a wasted opportunity. Getting out alive? Why would they expect that?!

yeah, they would have gotten one of the big nukes from Sentinel Station Prescott.

But then, they had little hope that the Relay interceptor would even work, then they would have blown themselves to heck instead of SS to bits.

[Liquid Inc]

Originally posted by Xenon The Noble:

Now this is food for thought... I didn't think from the faction leader's point of view! Their actions make no sense at all. Send some useful idiot on what has to be a suicide mission, as they're sure that the Institute is the ultimate evil would be a wasted opportunity. Getting out alive? Why would they expect that?!

yeah, they would have gotten one of the big nukes from Sentinel Station Prescott.

But then, they had little hope that the Relay interceptor would even work, then they would have blown themselves to heck instead of SS to bits.

tbf, if you expected it to backfire, wouldn't you build it somewhere else away from your base of operations? (or in the MM's case, away from any settlements)
There wasn't any guarantee's the relay wouldn't have brought back synths rather than the SS either, or a courser!; yet you still build it at their bases, indicating they had some reason to believe it would work?

So, why didn't the BoS just dump a few nukes into the machine instead? i have no idea

[The Inept European]

The BoS in fact develop Relay jamming tech all by themselves - entirely without help from SS (let alone from Sturges or Tinker), without having the scan holotape and without even getting their renegade scientist back.

[The Inept European]

I mean I really love this game but the main story is just SO bad...