Paladin Danse...is a synth!!! A bloody synth I tell ya! Allthough...do synths bleed?

[Inardesco]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2906217496

So this rookie guy starts badmouthing synths, and I picked the runaway synth in the alternative start, start, so I was like. ♥♥♥♥ you.

Shot him.

Had to kill the others.

And Paladin Danse is a synth?

[Iron Knights]

Not sure the neurochip can be safely removed, but that surely would've added more to the plot, cause otherwise, the 3rd Gen. Synths are human bodies, but human bodies that have never gone through the evolution process and mental progress, thus more unstable. They should be prone to "Synth Diseases" like stuff not blocked at RNA/DNA generation in the labs.

[ANALYST_0451]

Publicado originalmente por DouglasGrave:

Publicado originalmente por ANALYST_0451:

The game glosses over how Danse exited the institute (was he secretly a scout or plant?) and whether he had any secret programming (a wasted plot opportunity).

Him appearing on the list of missing/escaped synths is a solid indication that he's neither a scout nor a plant (or that if he was either, he went rogue on his own).

But I would argue that a single terminal entry IS glossing it over. They couldn't spare a few lines of dialogue for Father to say that only the newest Gen 3s have verbal killswitches, or pop a few line's in Ayo's mouth that Danse was an example of the "free will flaw" immune to Institute control? Just saying -- unless you're a completionist and absolutely trusting of what you find on terminals -- I always assume that the info is partial, one-sided, misinformed, or intentionally misleading without corroboration from the Deus Ex player in me -- it's pretty ambiguous.

Publicado originalmente por DouglasGrave:

Publicado originalmente por ANALYST_0451:

He was a perfect opportunity to learn more about the institute synths and whether the Railroad's "free will" argument for Gen 3s was real.

Yes, but the Brotherhood is about securing control and destroying technological dangers first and foremost. If they believe there's a danger to humanity on the other side of a few innocents, it's too bad for the innocents.

Yes, I think the game makes that clear through Maxson. My argument is that it's a narrow vision how to accomplish that mission and there was a time [cough, "Fallout 3"] when a version of the Brotherhood was a little more flexible about how to do it. I understand the writing choice -- it's very effective at pushing player into fully committing to the BOS no matter what versus exercising compassion for Danse. But, they could've taken it a different direction to show Maxson as a more complex leader -- or at least that the Brotherhood in the Commonwealth was open to some creative solutioning.

[DouglasGrave]

Publicado originalmente por ANALYST_0451:

Publicado originalmente por DouglasGrave:

Him appearing on the list of missing/escaped synths is a solid indication that he's neither a scout nor a plant (or that if he was either, he went rogue on his own).

But I would argue that a single terminal entry IS glossing it over. They couldn't spare a few lines of dialogue for Father to say that only the newest Gen 3s have verbal killswitches, or pop a few line's in Ayo's mouth that Danse was an example of the "free will flaw" immune to Institute control? Just saying -- unless you're a completionist and absolutely trusting of what you find on terminals -- I always assume that the info is partial, one-sided, misinformed, or intentionally misleading without corroboration from the Deus Ex player in me -- it's pretty ambiguous.

It's not from a terminal entry. It's something we hear about from Proctor Quinlan examining a list of missing/escaped synths in the network scan stolen from the Institute and finding Danse's picture and genetic information (the latter matched with Brotherhood's own records).

While I do generally agree that considering the perspective of the "speaker" is important, the way it's described in this case doesn't leave much room for bias, with the Brotherhood reporting on basic record data that the Institute clearly never intended for them to have.

When we add Danse's backstory where his first identifiable contact with people is a decade ago, the most likely conclusion is that he went missing and the Institute simply gave up the search after a while. No action is ever taken to reclaim or use him because he's a just a forgotten cold case.

EDIT: Since I happen to have the screenshots anyway from a previous discussion, here's where it's mentioned:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2344787897
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2344787999
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2344788033
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2344788052
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2344788089
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2344788117

Publicado originalmente por ANALYST_0451:

Yes, I think the game makes that clear through Maxson. My argument is that it's a narrow vision how to accomplish that mission and there was a time [cough, "Fallout 3"] when a version of the Brotherhood was a little more flexible about how to do it. I understand the writing choice -- it's very effective at pushing player into fully committing to the BOS no matter what versus exercising compassion for Danse. But, they could've taken it a different direction to show Maxson as a more complex leader -- or at least that the Brotherhood in the Commonwealth was open to some creative solutioning.

Maxson is painted as a zealous leader, and even being able to be convinced to spare Danse when his default intention is to kill him is already him bending.

I agree it's not very creative as a solution, but from Maxson's perspective I think it's very reasonable that he doesn't consider the potential to be worth the risk of having Danse around. Sparing him is accepted because he's also entirely removed from the Brotherhood. It's a response that still fits with the Brotherhood's tendency to establish control of a situation and eliminate dangers; Danse is either effectively kept under control as a risk by isolating him from the Brotherhood, or eliminated entirely.

[Hex]

Bethesda missed a golden opportunity because their writers are incompetent hacks.

Father is dying of some illness. Synths are made with his DNA. Therefore, it could easily be that all the Synth would die of that same genetic illness in x amount of years, making the whole threat meaningless after the Institute is blown up and they can't make more as all the synths out there have an expiration date.

[ANALYST_0451]

Publicado originalmente por DouglasGrave:

Maxson is painted as a zealous leader, and even being able to be convinced to spare Danse when his default intention is to kill him is already him bending.

I agree it's not very creative as a solution, but from Maxson's perspective I think it's very reasonable that he doesn't consider the potential to be worth the risk of having Danse around. Sparing him is accepted because he's also entirely removed from the Brotherhood. It's a response that still fits with the Brotherhood's tendency to establish control of a situation and eliminate dangers; Danse is either effectively kept under control as a risk by isolating him from the Brotherhood, or eliminated entirely.

OK -- I apologize for honing in on the terminal entry piece and concede that there was more dialogue about Danse's status. It's been a while since I played as the BOS and I forgot about those cues after raiding the institute. I actually held back the holotape a few times to avoid triggering the 'outing' of Danse as a synth. I'll meet you halfway and say that Bethesda offered enough evidence to disqualify my statement as "glossing it over."

Subjectively, I would say that I didn't feel like they resolved Danse's origins enough to know that he wasn't a defective murderbot like the Broken Mask incident, and would have preferred some greater detail to that effect.

And yes, while it's not the most creative solution, I think we agree that Maxson's approach was consistent. I think we can agree that other possibilities may exist, but I'll meet you halfway and say that the other approaches (keeping an eye on Danse, tying an explosive around his neck, or other means of ensuring compliance) would've been too far outside the norm for the story and that the writer's kept it within reason.

[globefish23]

Publicado originalmente por Inardesco:

do synths bleed?

Paladin Danse is a Gen3 synth.
Those are humans artificially created in a laboratory, cloned from the DNA of Shaun, genetically modified to be immortal and other superhuman abilities.
They also have a brain interface installed ("synth component"), which allows uploading and manipulating another humans memories and consciousness, or creating one from scratch.

So yes, of course they bleed.

[Bored Peon]

Publicado originalmente por Hex:

Bethesda missed a golden opportunity because their writers are incompetent hacks.

Father is dying of some illness. Synths are made with his DNA. Therefore, it could easily be that all the Synth would die of that same genetic illness in x amount of years, making the whole threat meaningless after the Institute is blown up and they can't make more as all the synths out there have an expiration date.

The only problem with that is the blood samples used.

It stands to reason that:
- The blood used is from before the cancer.
- The Institute came up with a way to avoid requiring blood from Father/Shaun for each synth made.

The more important quest is, why did the Institute not just create a synth for Father/Shaun since it is "Mankind Redefined."

[DouglasGrave]

Publicado originalmente por ANALYST_0451:

Publicado originalmente por DouglasGrave:

Maxson is painted as a zealous leader, and even being able to be convinced to spare Danse when his default intention is to kill him is already him bending.

I agree it's not very creative as a solution, but from Maxson's perspective I think it's very reasonable that he doesn't consider the potential to be worth the risk of having Danse around. Sparing him is accepted because he's also entirely removed from the Brotherhood. It's a response that still fits with the Brotherhood's tendency to establish control of a situation and eliminate dangers; Danse is either effectively kept under control as a risk by isolating him from the Brotherhood, or eliminated entirely.

OK -- I apologize for honing in on the terminal entry piece and concede that there was more dialogue about Danse's status. It's been a while since I played as the BOS and I forgot about those cues after raiding the institute. I actually held back the holotape a few times to avoid triggering the 'outing' of Danse as a synth. I'll meet you halfway and say that Bethesda offered enough evidence to disqualify my statement as "glossing it over."

Subjectively, I would say that I didn't feel like they resolved Danse's origins enough to know that he wasn't a defective murderbot like the Broken Mask incident, and would have preferred some greater detail to that effect.

I certainly agree that they didn't address it all that directly, and I'd concede that it's mostly by a derived conclusion that we can say when Danse was replaced, but noting that the conclusion is based on the only reasonable timing (when he's an adult in his backstory and meets people who would otherwise contradict it).

Bethesda doesn't really lay it out, just scatters the bits around so that it's possible to piece the story together if you really try. But at least in Danse's case there are enough pieces to generally make something of it, unlike certain other times. It's technically there, but the presentation isn't always great.

Publicado originalmente por ANALYST_0451:

And yes, while it's not the most creative solution, I think we agree that Maxson's approach was consistent. I think we can agree that other possibilities may exist, but I'll meet you halfway and say that the other approaches (keeping an eye on Danse, tying an explosive around his neck, or other means of ensuring compliance) would've been too far outside the norm for the story and that the writer's kept it within reason.

Yes, that's certainly true. We also already had a notable option end up on the cutting room floor when they decided against making it possible to challenge Maxson for leadership of the Brotherhood.

Overall, extra creativity simply isn't necessary because the solutions are served up on a plate. They don't need to try for extra information from Danse because they already have the answers. It might be more difficult if the Institute had been on a space station or something instead of underground, but all they really needed was the Institute's location. Beyond that the player isn't made as vital a piece in the Brotherhood storyline as the game likes to pretend.

[DouglasGrave]

Publicado originalmente por Bored Peon:

Publicado originalmente por Hex:

Bethesda missed a golden opportunity because their writers are incompetent hacks.

Father is dying of some illness. Synths are made with his DNA. Therefore, it could easily be that all the Synth would die of that same genetic illness in x amount of years, making the whole threat meaningless after the Institute is blown up and they can't make more as all the synths out there have an expiration date.

The only problem with that is the blood samples used.

It stands to reason that:
- The blood used is from before the cancer.
- The Institute came up with a way to avoid requiring blood from Father/Shaun for each synth made.

The more important quest is, why did the Institute not just create a synth for Father/Shaun since it is "Mankind Redefined."

I'd have to say part ideology because they don't want a synth in charge (due to seeing them as just tools), and partly the issue of making a copy not being the original.

Their idea of redefining mankind currently seems to consist of them being a self-made vault of humans with a whole lot of synth serving their needs for all the boring stuff. It's redefining humanity by replacing all the workers with synthetic robots to just leave a scientific elite as the only real humans.

They don't seem to be into redefining humanity in the sense of transhumanism, where the basic nature of a human could evolve or change.

[DouglasGrave]

Publicado originalmente por globefish23:

Paladin Danse is a Gen3 synth.
Those are humans artificially created in a laboratory, cloned from the DNA of Shaun, genetically modified to be immortal and other superhuman abilities.
They also have a brain interface installed ("synth component"), which allows uploading and manipulating another humans memories and consciousness, or creating one from scratch.

So yes, of course they bleed.

The actual function of the synth component is really never stated. It could do something with memories or it could just as easily be for assisting teleportation like the visibly-identical courser chip. Or it may have no definite function at all and just be a narrative device to let the player know a dead person was a synth.

The blood is a bit weird, too, since the Institute can apparently (according to one of their terminals) just replace all the blood in a synth with new, upgraded blood. Though the "do synths bleed?" question is one we can at least answer in very basic practical terms with the application of bullets.