Father can't be Shaun

[Zibby]

SPOILERS AHEAD!!


Here is my theory on why Father, leader of the institute, cannot be your son Shaun.
First of all the biggest reason I believe this to be true is because while exploring Kellog's memories the last memory you encounter has the radio playing, on the radio you can hear Travis Miles talking about Pipers latest story kicking up a fuss about the institute. When you talk to Piper (When you first tell her that the institute has Shaun) she says that she's been working on the institute story for just over a year, not 50 years. Also no way is Piper in her 50's/60's. Same story with Travis, the radio presenter for Diamond City Radio, he looks like he is in his mid 20's, so how can he be on the radio supposedly 50 years in the past?


When you interact with Shaun during this last memory Kellog says he's gunna miss him, he says it like he's never going to see him again, well if Kellog works for the institute then why would he not see him again in the future?

When first entering the institue you encounter a synth child that represents your son, this is when Father tells you that he is Shaun. I believe he says this because he realises that you have the potential to destroy the institute, you're not exactly gunna join sides with the institute if he says 'yeah sorry we stole Shaun and used him to make Gen 3 synths, but hey, still wanna join up?' He uses the excuse that he is your son to make you join up. How could a kidnapped kid become the leader of the institute anyway? From what we know so far people who are kidnapped and replaced by synths go missing for good, what makes Shaun any different other than the fact he is from before the war?

That's just speculation and there isn't any real evidence to support that last point. But I'm not done yet. There's still that fact that in Kellogs last memory he is tasked with hunting down and killing Virgil, our task as the sole survivor is to find Virgil, and indeed we do find him, alive and well. Meaning that either Kellog is the worst assassin ever, glowing sea or no, or that 50 years hasn't actually passed. And considering that Kellog is the institutes best mercenary I doubt that it will have taken him 50 years to accomplish his mission. In fact, the sole survivor finds Virgil with minimal problems. Also, within the institute Virgils lab is still in ruins, meaning the institute hasn't cleaned up in 50 years?

However though this is all just speculation and I'm not trying to force my view upon anyone, that's just the evidence I have found against Father and I shall leave you guys to come to your own conclusions. There is obvious evidence against him been Shaun, but also evidence which I haven't mentioned which point to him actually been Shaun, but I think that the evidence for him been Shaun is made up by the institute.

[DouglasGrave]

Pure_Phoenix a écrit :

1. Wrong, he always appears the same and claiming otherwise is either the result of a mod you forgot about, or you're lying. It hasn't been shown on YT even.

I can't say for sure about his exact facial features, but his skin tone does appear to vary, most noticably when comparing him with light-skinned parents versus dark-skinned ones.

Pure_Phoenix a écrit :

A) Kellogg being 250+ years old and even in his memories, very young looking for his age. He'd have to be 50 and looking 30-odd.

B) Father a liar and he's a synth who's lived 150+ years, or a liar who has improved kellogg enough to live 250 years.

I'm not sure how you're concluding that Kellogg is 250 years old. Kellogg is post-war, not pre-war.

Pure_Phoenix a écrit :

C) Father a liar about the fact human tissue can live longer than ~75 years (Although not likely, as both Amari and the Railroad confirm that the oldest semi-biological synths are at max ~70 years old. But they don't know abuot Kellogg!)

Then there's whatisname from Far Habour? A 215-ish year old Synth.
And Nick.

Gen 3 synths are no more than about 60 years old because that's when they developed them. Gen 2 synths (including DiMA and Nick, who are prototypes based on Gen 2 technology) can be considerably older, somewhat over 100 years, but the exact age is unknown.

Nick's own accounts show a flawed tracking of time, since he recounts waking up with memories of a man 200 years dead, when it would have been no more than about 150 years after the fact. He shows a similar lack of clarity in regard to the timing of the CPG massacre and Broken Mask Incident (the former being with the earliest synths, which is when trust between the Institute and surface broke down, the latter involving the earliest known Gen 3 prototype).

Since DiMA also had memory issues (needing to upgrade himself, not just to remove unwanted memories), Nick's trouble with keeping track of correct long-term dates is presumably due to him being a discarded prototype who doesn't even benefit from the improvements DiMA has made to himself.

[Slaughterer]

What" DiMA and Nick both claim to be developed pre-war.

Lying out your ass doesn't make you right.

[DouglasGrave]

Pure_Phoenix a écrit :

What" DiMA and Nick both claim to be developed pre-war.

The only pre-war element there is Nick's memories, which the Institute apparently retrieved from a pre-war project.

Pure_Phoenix a écrit :

Lying out your ass doesn't make you right.

Indeed it does not, so where did DiMA or Nick state themselves to be pre-war?

[Slaughterer]

DouglasGrave a écrit :

Pure_Phoenix a écrit :

What" DiMA and Nick both claim to be developed pre-war.

The only pre-war element there is Nick's memories, which the Institute apparently retrieved from a pre-war project.

Pure_Phoenix a écrit :

Lying out your ass doesn't make you right.

Indeed it does not, so where did DiMA or Nick state themselves to be pre-war?

1. Nick is very obviously the same age as DiMA. They both have similar degradation over time. It's visually apparant, even.
2. In DiMA's initial dialogue. His *memory banks* were sealed away 150 years ago. He was the result of a synth project pre-dating the instutute and barely before the war started.

[DouglasGrave]

Pure_Phoenix a écrit :

DouglasGrave a écrit :

The only pre-war element there is Nick's memories, which the Institute apparently retrieved from a pre-war project.

Indeed it does not, so where did DiMA or Nick state themselves to be pre-war?

1. Nick is very obviously the same age as DiMA. They both have similar degradation over time. It's visually apparant, even.
2. In DiMA's initial dialogue. His *memory banks* were sealed away 150 years ago. He was the result of a synth project pre-dating the instutute and barely before the war started.

DiMA's initial dialogue describes coming to the Island over a hundred years ago. He never says it was pre-war, nor is there a specific statement for the memory banks (they're described in similarly vague terms).

[Yhwach]

Pure_Phoenix a écrit :

Hobo Misanthropus a écrit :

Father is Shaun, you can tell this yourself by messing with your character's facial features. The only other option was that Shaun/Father was also a synth, but he has no component.

Also, Synths don't get cancer.

1. Wrong, he always appears the same and claiming otherwise is either the result of a mod you forgot about, or you're lying. It hasn't been shown on YT even.

2. He's a synth. Some synths have no components.

3. Actually, if you play through the institute ending long enough, you'll find an overwhelming number of them are 'recycled' because they came out imperfect. Due to radiation damage and cancer etc.

He does in fact change based on your facial features, skin tone, with the exception being body type since he remains the same regardless of how fat or muscular both you, or your spouse may be.
I've played the game since launch, played it "at" launch and messed around with it myself, the only thing that doesn't change too much is the baby in the crib side for the skin tone.

You claim that the first part is wrong and they're lying, and you throw an obviously blant, proof-absent, and unbackable by non-speculative statement out there..real smart.

They came out "imperfect" doesn't imply that they no longer have the immunity to cancer; it's in terminals and heresay, but synths have an overwhelmingly great protection against radiation and don't suffer the same illnesses that organic humans do.

Most of the "imperfections" directly stated by Justin are merely ones where they have a little "too much" freedom, aren't strong enough (like how you bested that courser and he didn't believe you, and thought it to be a "malfunction") or simply aren't up to par...straight from the (current) head of robotics, where even Zimmer would probably tell you the same.

[Slaughterer]

Yhwach a écrit :

Pure_Phoenix a écrit :

1. Wrong, he always appears the same and claiming otherwise is either the result of a mod you forgot about, or you're lying. It hasn't been shown on YT even.

2. He's a synth. Some synths have no components.

3. Actually, if you play through the institute ending long enough, you'll find an overwhelming number of them are 'recycled' because they came out imperfect. Due to radiation damage and cancer etc.

He does in fact change based on your facial features, skin tone, with the exception being body type since he remains the same regardless of how fat or muscular both you, or your spouse may be.
I've played the game since launch, played it "at" launch and messed around with it myself, the only thing that doesn't change too much is the baby in the crib side for the skin tone.

You claim that the first part is wrong and they're lying, and you throw an obviously blant, proof-absent, and unbackable by non-speculative statement out there..real smart.

They came out "imperfect" doesn't imply that they no longer have the immunity to cancer; it's in terminals and heresay, but synths have an overwhelmingly great protection against radiation and don't suffer the same illnesses that organic humans do.

1. Proof or GTFO. I can't find it *shrugs*

[Yhwach]

Pure_Phoenix a écrit :

Yhwach a écrit :

He does in fact change based on your facial features, skin tone, with the exception being body type since he remains the same regardless of how fat or muscular both you, or your spouse may be.
I've played the game since launch, played it "at" launch and messed around with it myself, the only thing that doesn't change too much is the baby in the crib side for the skin tone.

You claim that the first part is wrong and they're lying, and you throw an obviously blant, proof-absent, and unbackable by non-speculative statement out there..real smart.

They came out "imperfect" doesn't imply that they no longer have the immunity to cancer; it's in terminals and heresay, but synths have an overwhelmingly great protection against radiation and don't suffer the same illnesses that organic humans do.

1. Proof or GTFO. I can't find it *shrugs*

Are you only changing "one" of the spouses? since he'll only really change if you do both and not one or the other, it's how the facial morph works and you can see it in his papyrus script.

[Slaughterer]

Yhwach a écrit :

Pure_Phoenix a écrit :

1. Proof or GTFO. I can't find it *shrugs*

Are you only changing "one" of the spouses? since he'll only really change if you do both and not one or the other, it's how the facial morph works and you can see it in his papyrus script.

Ok. Fair enough. That's not proof though and no i'm not playing through from 1-xx institute ending just to debunk you. That takes like a solid week of playing, if i'm doing it legit, which i'd have to so you don't accuse me of lying through console modding and then i'm uploading constantly which is a pain in the ass and i'd die lots because i'm getting half my usual framerate etc and *uhhhhhggggg*

long story short; You made the claim, you have to prove it.
Show me a different Father.

[Yhwach]

Pure_Phoenix a écrit :

Yhwach a écrit :

Are you only changing "one" of the spouses? since he'll only really change if you do both and not one or the other, it's how the facial morph works and you can see it in his papyrus script.

Ok. Fair enough. That's not proof though and no i'm not playing through from 1-xx institute ending just to debunk you. That takes like a solid week of playing, if i'm doing it legit, which i'd have to so you don't accuse me of lying through console modding and then i'm uploading constantly which is a pain in the ass and i'd die lots because i'm getting half my usual framerate etc and *uhhhhhggggg*

long story short; You made the claim, you have to prove it.
Show me a different Father.

I'm not at obligation to open the game right now since I'm heading to work soon, however, I can tell you what "does" change, and what "stays" the same (which doesn't prove much but it might explain why the different "fathers" look similar to each other, but they can in fact change dramatically..if you do it on purpose):

Stays the same

Beard
Hair
Height

Changes

Eye color
Eye shape
Ear shape
Facial blemishes (such as having wrinkled or oily smooth skin)
^ However, fun fact about this one, depending on "skin tone" this may actually change, otherwise, if he's caucasian then he's left with the same ones.

Nose shape
Mouth shape
Head shape
Skin tone

Here's one example where there was an asian family and it chose the same skin complexity, smoothness, eye shape, and different ears:
https://i.imgur.com/640bnVL.jpg

It's a subtle change, but only if you actually go into detail with both of the PC's you won't really see him change dramatically

[Slaughterer]

Yhwach a écrit :

Pure_Phoenix a écrit :

Ok. Fair enough. That's not proof though and no i'm not playing through from 1-xx institute ending just to debunk you. That takes like a solid week of playing, if i'm doing it legit, which i'd have to so you don't accuse me of lying through console modding and then i'm uploading constantly which is a pain in the ass and i'd die lots because i'm getting half my usual framerate etc and *uhhhhhggggg*

long story short; You made the claim, you have to prove it.
Show me a different Father.

I'm not at obligation to open the game right now since I'm heading to work soon, however, I can tell you what "does" change, and what "stays" the same (which doesn't prove much but it might explain why the different "fathers" look similar to each other, but they can in fact change dramatically..if you do it on purpose):

Stays the same

Beard
Hair
Height

Changes

Eye color
Eye shape
Ear shape
Facial blemishes (such as having wrinkled or oily smooth skin)
^ However, fun fact about this one, depending on "skin tone" this may actually change, otherwise, if he's caucasian then he's left with the same ones.

Nose shape
Mouth shape
Head shape
Skin tone

Here's one example where there was an asian family and it chose the same skin complexity, smoothness, eye shape, and different ears:
https://i.imgur.com/640bnVL.jpg

It's a subtle change, but only if you actually go into detail with both of the PC's you won't really see him change dramatically

That's literally what i see as an aryan/caucasian woman.

[Yhwach]

This is probably a better example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qD9ydHcX0A

Eye Color, Eye Shape, Ear Rotation (which is really neat), Ear Type, Mouth Size, Obviously skin tone, but you'll also notice similar skin blemishes.

I'd make a joke how most white people are similar, but...heh.
Again, it has to be dramatically changed or else he won't look that different.

[DouglasGrave]

Pure_Phoenix a écrit :

That's literally what i see as an aryan/caucasian woman.

It's close, but not exactly the same. However, it's not generally very easy to tell without a side-by-side comparison.

It's more evident with something dramatic like the extremes of dark and light skin tones.

[Slaughterer]

Yhwach a écrit :

This is probably a better example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qD9ydHcX0A

Eye Color, Eye Shape, Ear Rotation (which is really neat), Ear Type, Mouth Size, Obviously skin tone, but you'll also notice similar skin blemishes.

I'd make a joke how most white people are similar, but...heh.
Again, it has to be dramatically changed or else he won't look that different.

Are you drunk? That game is running faster than 60fps and very obviously modded.
You can't even set dialogue interactions/vats/etc to that colour without using one.
He''s also wearing a courser armour set as if -literally- one chest piece doesn't give you more armour by level 20+

[Yhwach]

DouglasGrave a écrit :

Pure_Phoenix a écrit :

That's literally what i see as an aryan/caucasian woman.

It's close, but not exactly the same. However, it's not generally very easy to tell without a side-by-side comparison.

It's more evident with something dramatic like the extremes of dark and light skin tones.

Exactly.
It takes the "default" face of shaun which is based off of the standard nate and nora, and morphs it based on both spouses presets, he does in fact change but:

- Both spouses have to be changed
- The changes have to be quite different

Otherwise he'll just look like shaun, since he looks like Default Nate...by default, heh.