Why do people think the Brotherhood is evil?

[Mr. Hanky]

From what I can tell, most everyone who thinks the brotherhood is evil bases their idea soley on a) they're socially rude to outsiders b) they don't trust synths c) they don't trust non-feral ghouls d) b and c makes them "racist" against fake races e) they seem religious to a point, and pop-culture finds anyone religious evil nowadays. I think I've even seen something about them demanding tribute of food to support themselves. This last point seems justifiable to me as they are providing protection to these communities (they're vertibirds are constantly attacking raiders and supermutants, and their people constantly dying because the vertibirds just circle around and around until someone inevitably shoots them out of the sky), and they would need food to keep on surviving and protecting. We can debate the ethics of doing that when the people didn't ask for it all day, but that's not the point. Do I basically have all of the key points down, or is there more to it that I am missing?

[Vandalen]

Get yourself Nick Valentine or Hancook and walk around the Zeppelin. You will hear a lot of good reasons for people thinking that the BoS in F4 is not really a good choice.

And like i said, this kids on the Zeppelin.. you can't paint that picture even more clear...

btw, when you talk about fascism groups, you do not need to argue about bodycounts. Bad is bad....

[DjPufnStuf]

Originally posted by Beautiful Ham Sandwich:

From the looks of it, the BoS have absolutely no problem with collateral damage. They even want to eliminate all ghouls, and I think Hancock is a cool dude

They don't like sentient ghouls but they won't kill them on sight. Bos is racist, but honestly the other factions are not much better. Institute considered sentient beings less human because they are created in a lab. Railroad imposes what they think is right since the synths don't know any better, "healing" wounds that don't need to be healed as seen in far harbor that synths can end up worse off with new memory implants or poorly implemented ones. And the Minutemen which are the "best" are drafting farmers into becoming a militia and they absolutely couldn't survive without you.

The other 3 factions yea they could probably go on without you in a slower pace the minutemen? Preston dumps the status of general on you immedately because despite all of Preston's propaganda about being a diehard minutemen he refuses to step up and be in control and dumps it on a person he doesn't know, that has not been in the commonwealth for long and lets these civilians be drafted into a war they were barely prepared to fight.

The Brotherhood of steel isn't perfect which is intential they seem the most intense because no one wants to look like a "bad guy" But considering they have the fighting capablity to handle super mutants and raiders as well as the gunners without support not to mention unlike the railroad they want to help humans while the railroad wants to save synths in a form of reverse racism since they don't care to much about humans except those that follow their lifestyle. Sometimes the military has to impose a bit of martial law which isn't great, but I doubt the commonwealth would hate it so much if they got protection with power armor soldiers for their food considering they lose food because of attackers, and food regrows it's not like brotherhood is demanding taxes like forcing farmers to give money. And talking about Maxson he is pretty zealot about the cause and a ♥♥♥♥, but look at his age he is 20 years old and told his entire life he is the decendant of the original leader of the brotherhood, yea he doesn't have the wisdom that the Lyons line had, but given time he will most likely relax more since he is willing to spare danse if convinced.

[Kapy]

Only Evil guys I see are the Railroad... Like get real... The Institute makes robots and these guys are like "Robots got feelings too! FREE EM ALL!"... Reminds me of that episode of Z nation where Murfy shouted "THEY FEEL TOO! Q_____Q" Poor zombies... Everyone who kills Feral ghouls is evil and racist, cuz they feel too #Thread

[Othobrithol]

Originally posted by DjPuffnStuff:

Railroad imposes what they think is right since the synths don't know any better, "healing" wounds that don't need to be healed as seen in far harbor that synths can end up worse off with new memory implants or poorly implemented ones.

But it should be noted that the Railroad didn't do her wipe, Faraday did. However I do agree that the railrioad's "you're not safe until we wipe you" (poo!) is a horrible policy that violates the rights of the synths as sentient beings.

The BoS, on the other hand are evil, in a world filled with worse evils. Anyone saying otherwise isn't looking at the big picture or is interpteting them in the style of FO 3 which was an anomoly. They take what they want, expect everyone else to get out of their way, don't care who they ruin while carrying out genocide justified by a fear that anything ->they<- can not control is too dangerous to exist. Their motif, modus operandi, big toys and bravado just appeal to some people that are more comfortable at drawing "us" vs "them" lines and discounting the rights of "the other" than I am.

[Kapy]

Forgot to mention! The institute arent evil either, because you are the leader and you chose how to lead them, basically if you're an a**hole and want to murder the world, then it' was your choise not the institute GGWP

[Charlemagne]

In a savage postapocalyptic world, there would be no place for politically correct, lame duck democracy and "the declaration of nonhuman rights". Dictatorship, an iron hand, and clear goals would be practically required fro human civilization to recover. Supermutants and occult gen-3 synths are a clear and present danger to the survival of humanity. They can be seen as "aliens" for all practical purposes as if they were invading from outer space to destroy humanity. Even "good-guy" Gen-3's, if they are posing as humans are a poison that inevitably has to destroy humans. The railroad are morons in helping synths infiltrate. Eventually synths will start to see themselves as superior and stage a Terminator/Skynet coup.

The Institute also are completely idiots to not see it coming. The symptoms are the rebel synths that want to run away. Coursers would be the leaders of the revolt. Synths would take over, kill all humans and continue reproducing themselves using the vats. Then pour out on the surface and eradicate humans.

Non-feral ghouls are a separate case. They are basically sick people, they don't try to destroy humans, they don't hide what they are, they don't reproduce. Not a menace. BOS discriminating them is indeed wrong, but at least they don't attack them outright or anything that bad.

Synths that are not posing as humans and acting openly are not a menace. Like Nick Valentine. Nick is not very different from Codsworth or Ada, an advanced robot with personality. They could be tolerated, the problem with gen 3's is that they can go underground and pose as humans. To be tolerated they would have to come out in the open and stay out.

Overall I think the BOS are good guys. They have their defects but they are more good than evil. They put themselves on the line and lose a lot of people to rid the Commonwealth of monsters. They could just nuke everything but instead they go in as infantry to be more selective. Unless the situation has become politicallycomplicated they are not hostile to civilians, including non feral ghouls.

[Kasane Randell MFer]

Because they do the "shoot first, ask questions later" thing when technology is involved. Yes I know, IN THE GAME you just kill hostil NPCs. But in the actual world of fallout, the BoS would attack you just for being there. They don't care about anything other then themselves, now this can be debated, but it goes against there order. To secure technology, no matter the cost. Same with super mutants, ghouls, and synths. Yes, I know some past games have there own "gray area", but it was only to survive. once they got what they need, think they'll keep ghouls, super mutants, and synths in there ranks? Danse sure as hell wasn't.

Heck you lose settlements if you try to get food for them. I can name every ingame reason why the BoS is evil, but not as evil as The Institute with there human expirements and kidnaps. But in all honesty, is they are equal to in evil actions imo.

[cronic0_0]

I loved the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 3 but the direction the developers are taking them disappoints me... I hate it.

I loved the Brotherhood of Steel so much in Fallout 3 then I actually ordered posters the hang up on my wall I really really wish one more expansion to this game will be made to overthrow maxson and set the Brotherhood of Steel back on the path of fallout 3. The path they are on now will be there downfall its just a matter of time that the people of the wastelands rise up against them.

[Othobrithol]

Well it isn't really a "new" direction...they were traditionally jerks...not quite as rabid as maxson...but elder lyons was an exception (and they even made a VERY big deal of that in FO3). Compare your interactions with them in FO3 with your first quest for them in the original : they send you on a suicide mission to retrieve a data disk from "The Glow"...they are suprised when you survive.

People cried Poo-poo about it so we get an even more dickish BoS.

[pike]

who are the people who founded isis ? brotherhood of steel
alex , did i get it right ?

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Mr. Hanky:

Do I basically have all of the key points down, or is there more to it that I am missing?

More or Less

Originally posted by Mr. Hanky:

a) they're are rude to outsiders [and the player]

Probably one of the most important ones for a few players. There is a reason Nazim, Marcey and Braith are remembered.

Originally posted by Mr. Hanky:

b) they don't trust synths

They want to kill/decommission synths which they see as an abomination. Let’s not sugarcoat this part, it is part of their stated objectives in this game. As you say whether this is a "good/wise/necessary/insane" thing is a slightly separate matter.

Originally posted by Mr. Hanky:

c) they don't trust non-feral ghouls

They do not trust ghouls period. They kill ferals.

Originally posted by Mr. Hanky:

d) b and c makes them "racist" against fake races

Or speciest or possibly even some form of ableist depending on the perspective of the person making the argument. There is probably a term that refers to mutants of which I'm unaware.

Originally posted by Mr. Hanky:

e) they seem religious to a point, and pop-culture finds anyone religious evil nowadays

I think it is more anti-authority and anti-conformity then specifically anti-religion.

I'd probably add that I've noticed a few have issues with the Brotherhood taking these matters into their own hands and acting as the "wasteland police". Unilaterally deciding to help people whether they want it or not.

Some have also convinced themselves that the Brotherhood of Steel are luddites, somehow. Probably due to their refusal to compromise, their tendency to make things explode as well as an interpretation of Maxson speech. I don't think it is particulary accurate but the "issue" pops up.

[haljayjim]

there is no outright "evil" in this game. however the B.O.S. is full of, and run by an A-hole.

[Panda-Bishop]

They aren't evil, per se, but they're as amoral as the Institute.

In order to pursue the vision of the future that they hold, they have no reservations about killing people that they shouldn't have to. They didn't need to execute everyone in the Railroad, nor did they need to execute the children and scientists not involved with the FEV or synth projects in the Institute, but they did because it was convenient.

The only reason the BoS isn't considered the bad guy is because the Institute was written as being comically evil, but think about it this way: Maxson didn't bring the BoS to the Commonwealth because of the FEV experiements or because the Institute was murdering innocents, his entire speech was about how he could not stand the idea of robots being given free will.

The Institute could have been written with no FEV experiments, no replacing people with synths, no Kellogg - they could have been building synths and sending them into the Commonwealth as new settlers who secretely help rebuild everything, but Maxson would still fly in to nuke the Institute and murder anyone that gives synths refuge because robots with free will have no place in his vision for the future of humanity.

If you want proof, just look at how quickly Maxson turns on his most decorated and trusted Paladin the moment he realized Danse wasn't human.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Bishop:

The Institute could have been written with no FEV experiments, no replacing people with synths, no Kellogg - they could have been building synths and sending them into the Commonwealth as new settlers who secretely help rebuild everything, but Maxson would still fly in to nuke the Institute and murder anyone that gives synths refuge because robots with free will have no place in his vision for the future of humanity.

That is an interesting point. Probably true.

This is of course just my own fanon musing but I cant help but think the brotherhood would see the similarities between the current state and the Pre-NCR west. Wisely staying out of the government and letting the wasteland flourish didn't particulary end well for the brotherhood. Not this wasn't their fault of course but If I were them I'd be very attentive to any "rebuilding" of nations and the like.

The Point is somewhat moot as that isn't what happens in game. The institute and railroads goals are different and the minutemen haven't gone that direction, yet

[Jivebot]

Synths...machines designed to murder and replace humans...

Yes. Totally racist to mistrust and dislike them. Totally.

Ghouls...perfectly amicable...until the day they snap and go Feral. Afterall, every feral ghoul was once sane. What causes them to go off the deep end? Slow degredation over time, or can it be sudden like flipping a switch? Who knows. But judging by the sheer volume of Feral Ghouls encountered, whatever the trigger is it happens ALOT. So basically every Ghoul is a walking, talking, cannibalistic time bomb. And since their near-immortality grants them an abundance of time, barring a violent end it's not really a question of 'If'. It's a question of 'When'.

And let's not even start on the glowing ones...

So yes, clearly Ghoul mistrust is also the product of an ignorant, thoughtless, and bigoted mind.