Hardcore/Survival Thoughts?

[Jusey1]

So... OM-Studios has uploaded a little blog talking about their version of the Hardcore/Survival mode for their Fallout game, which sounds nicely done. Though it got me thinking... What is everyone's opinion on the Hardcore/Survival mode? (It being called Survival in Fallout 4 and Hardcore in New Vegas). Do you like the extra mode? Enjoy using it perhaps? Which one do you prefer?

I personally like them both myself, but enjoy Fallout 4's survival more so than New Vegas's hardcore. Not sure why to be honest. However, OM's version of it sounds like it'll be superior to the two... To simply put, the Hardcore/Survival isn't an difficulty settings, but rather it's own set of 8 settings. Allowing the player to turn on/off each specific setting instead of having just one on/off switch, like for New Vegas and Fallout 4.

The 8 settings being:
1. Food, Water & Sleep
2. Temperature & Diseases
3. Ammo, Chem & Misc Weight
4. No Fast Travel
5. Companion Death
6. Weapon Condition & Repair
7. Blind Mode
8. Ironman

6 of these we all probably recognized right away. The last two are different. Blind Mode basically removes the HUD completely. As in, you literally have to go into your Pip-Boy menu to check your ammo, health, weapon condition, and other important things while Ironman makes it so you can only rely on two Autosaves. Nothing else. (Kinda similar to Fallout 4's Survival save feature except Autosaves in general instead of just Sleep Saves).

Anyways, what about you?

[WarMachine]

Escrito originalmente por draganot:

Survival is nice but I still think it's too easy. Unfortunately, this is because Fallout 4's survival mode was an afterthought. If the game was designed with survival in mind however it would be a different story.


TLDR: Shoving in afterthoughts is never as good as primary design points.

Next thing your going to tell people DayZ is hard because it was build from the ground up to be a hardcore survival. The game doesn't get harder, it gets more tedious. Contrary to popular belief, survival isn't that hard, humans have been doing since their exsistance.



Me personally, I use survival settings, and a couple other mods. I've set the world to a more realistic setttungs. If I do nothing, I need to eat twice and drink three times in one day sleep six hours. Normal movment tires me so I walk (actually got use to this because of NV in VR). The kinda things I have to worry about is the unkown, if I get caught in a radstorm and can't find cover, I will die. My cells respawn faster, and everything including me has even less health. For me it not about harder or difficulty, it's more about realism and RP when I play survival. I play regular game when I want to tgm and build settlments.

[Jusey1]

Escrito originalmente por I smell rapper:

I'd love for the ability to remove health gain from levels but at the same time I feel like the damage perks were made with the health gain in mind.

I am with you on this. Removing health gain from levels and make it so your health is something like 100 + 10*Endurance + Perks is something I would like to see. Damage then will be balanced on the limited health. On top of that, balance out everything's health in general. I really don't like bullet sponges.

[Zig Zag Zach]

I was used to Fallout 3 Wander's Edition plus other mods. Fallout 4's survival mode comes across as bitter devs wanting to make the survival mode more annoying than challenging to spit in the face of people who wanted a real survival mode.

Everything about it is so painfully unrealistic and tedious it isn't worth playing. Game crashes? You lost tons of play time. pcb? Nope. Console is disabled. Even if you enable the console, some commands are disabled. Needs get bugged? Can't switch off survival mode and then turn it back on to reset! Sit in your cleaned out Vault for 3 days? Magically you have contracted diseases and illnesses at random. Take the cannibal perk? Game broken permanently. Accurate ammo weight? HA! Just ate 4 steaks today? You are starved from lack of food. Poor collision detection set off that molotov 20 feet away killing you? Welp, rewind an hour needlessly.

Everything seems to be made by some group that was bitter. Plenty of examples of perfected survival sims are out there. Even for Bethesda's own games. Not sure why they felt the need to do this. Other than people constantly complaining about the aborted original Survival difficult at launch. It was lazy in the first place. At least F:NV ported FWE from Fallout 3 even if it was a bit of stealing from modders.

Then again, Fallout 4 was manufactured solely to appeal to lowest common denominator and make the widest profit margins. Not sure how many people are playing Fallout for a survival experience.

[Jusey1]

Escrito originalmente por falloutftw:

I was used to Fallout 3 Wander's Edition plus other mods. Fallout 4's survival mode comes across as bitter devs wanting to make the survival mode more annoying than challenging to spit in the face of people who wanted a real survival mode.

Fallout 4's survival mode is a real survival mode because it is suppose to be like that. You gotta eat, sleep, and drink. There are diseases and ofcourse medicine/drugs (Stimpaks, Radaway, etc) makes it easier to catch a disease, which is similar to real life. Damage is a bit more realistic in general. You can't fast travel in real life. And I can go on.

The point of Survival is to make it more like real life where you gotta survive through actual normal every day things that you do in real life. Which can be annoying or hard to specific people or really easy to others. It depends on the individual. It's isn't really meant to be challenging honestly. Just to be about survival, which it does a great job at.

Then again, I rarely run into any bugs or issues. Probably because I generally am good at Bethesda's games.

Escrito originalmente por falloutftw:

Then again, Fallout 4 was manufactured solely to appeal to lowest common denominator

Nope. It was manufactured based on player feedback. Survival mode itself came to be due to player feedback, for example. Bethesda keeps track of their fandom and does listen to them about issues, bugs, or other things of their games. Every game changes according to the feedback of the last game.

[JonayOfSweden]

I don't like the Survival mod. Yet I play it because I want the hardest difficulty.

It's just tedious, takes FOREVER to get around without fast travel, spceially if you just want to drop something off at a certain spot. The "eat and drink" is annoying, it doesn't feel like eating or drinking it just feels like a chore. Press this to take away your debuff.

And getting sick is just insane. You're CONSTANTLY sick, even though you don't eat raw meat, drink bad water, or do anything, you'll get sick anyway. And get huge debuffs.

It's not becaues it makes it harder, its just because it's so.. feaking.. annoying. I really don't like it.

[JonayOfSweden]

Nope. It was manufactured based on player feedback. Survival mode itself came to be due to player feedback, for example. Bethesda keeps track of their fandom and does listen to them about issues, bugs, or other things of their games. Every game changes according to the feedback of the last game. [/quote]

Survival mod came about because Tod Howard likes the frostfall mod for skyrim and said in an interview before FO4 he wanted that built in to another bethesda game. But its not fun. Frostfall was fun, it felt like a thing. This survival just feels like pressing buttons to get rid of debuffs.

[J A C K S O N]

The extra mode is awesome. I started a new game with it. The start is really rough. It is pretty exciting to only save while sleeping, because every fkn ghul can onehit u early/midgame. Now i am 110. I dont play with power armor. It is like cheating. While most of the enemies are onehits you are not a bullet sponge too.

[ayrtep]

I like survival mode in the main. A few problems like 'no console' are easily fixed by mods.

I think the thing I dislike most is the no respawn. (or very long respawn time)

Initially, when the game first came out I liked the way areas repopulated after a short while, it games a feeling of danger while you walked around. Now with the survival changes when you have cleared an area you know it's safe and can freely move around without worry. This seems kind against the principle of survival mode.

Yes, I know it is stopping some exploit that I never really understood. But really if someone wants to break the game they can regardless, that's no reason to overreact.

[a man and his harem]

i find it more a bother and another thing to do. its still a one fix all with the antibotic. and some of the illnesses i would think would not even work with said fix. i find it a very lazily way in making a S-mod. if they wantted to really make it hard, not a bother, is to look at Arma 2/3 and 7 days to die. almost everyone makes the mod better. but the thing i hated the most was taking the console commande a way

(because 9 out of 10 times i find my self stuck.
1) fast travil does not work im mucked. i gotten stuck in rocks/ behind fenches tomany times to count. or fallen threw world...

2 i use TCL all the time when building since there building SUCKS),

3)) the save anytime(as bad as there game is saving anytime to not lose progress... is a must. beth games crash way to much to take this away, and other bugs that can cause the game to crash and lose all said progress.. i got stuck in a inside cell after a update when going out side before entering said area the open wrold would crash... i find saving anytime a must.), and fast travil is for when i get stuck in said areas, or settlements being attacked. i normaly dont use it much unless im trying to get a fetch quest done.. i also CTD alot when entering or leaving a cell (inside buildings )


this is not frostfall mod they left everything out beth did

[HoroSaga]

I appreciate what Bethesda was trying to do with the new Survival Mode, especially since it was provided for "free" (at the cost of a pre-existing difficulty mode), but I feel that their overall vision for the new Survival Mode was too muddied. In my opinion, the developers could not decide if they were trying to implement a "realistic" mode with mechanics that were intended to simulate survival, or a new "difficulty mode" with mechanics that were intended to artificially inflate difficulty by imposing arbitrary restrictions and multipliers.

The addition of mechanics such as the "needs system" are at home in a survival simulation, but they do not portray a realistic progression of someone's actual need to eat or drink. It did during the early beta testing, but people complained that it was "too easy" to keep up with thirst and hunger, so they were accelerated to unrealistic levels so that the player would need to eat and drink more often. This is a good example of how the developers allowed their need for artificial difficulty to trump their goal of providing a "realistic" survival experience. Another common example of "difficulty" taking precedence over "survival simulation" is the decision to have short naps make your character sleepier, to punish you for taking quick catnaps when you just want to save your progress.

Likewise, the decision to impose arbitrary restrictions such as the removal of the conventional save system and debug console speak to their desire to impose artificial difficulty, rather than survival simulation. Both of those are "convenience features" intended for use by the player when real life takes precedence over the game. Removing them does nothing to add to the "survival simulation" aspects of the game, but exist to instead promote artificial difficulty through the use of deliberate "inconvenience features".

Unfortunately, many of the mechanics ultimately fall flat regardless of how they were implemented, because the game is inherently unbalanced as the player gets to higher levels. The player grows exponentially in power as they increase in level, and resources are abundant once the player has progressed past the very early stages of the game. The entire disease and antibiotic system, for example, is trivialized by the use of low-cost clinics. the "needs" system is largely trivialized by the basic settlement system. The "slower respawning" system is very inconsistently implemented, and often results in enemies taking much longer to respawn than loot does, causing many areas to regenerate piles of unguarded loot with no enemies respawning to guard that loot (thus unintentionally making the game even easier).

In order for Survival Mode to present a more unified "realistic" or "challenging" experience (depending on which goal you're aiming for), the game itself would have needed to be more uniformly balanced in the first place.

But, that said, many people still seem to enjoy it in it's current form.

[draganot]

Escrito originalmente por WarMachine:

Escrito originalmente por draganot:

Survival is nice but I still think it's too easy. Unfortunately, this is because Fallout 4's survival mode was an afterthought. If the game was designed with survival in mind however it would be a different story.


TLDR: Shoving in afterthoughts is never as good as primary design points.

Next thing your going to tell people DayZ is hard because it was build from the ground up to be a hardcore survival. The game doesn't get harder, it gets more tedious. Contrary to popular belief, survival isn't that hard, humans have been doing since their exsistance.

Dayz is only hard because other players are jackasses. The game isnt that tough anyway. Just because a game is built for it does not mean it will be hard, it does mean it CAN be better optimised for it which if it is, can add difficulty as a sort of side effect. Dayz was built for survival, but the difficulty is from jackasses, not the game itself. Its all about how its done and optimized. Its a tricky balanceing act, but done right its a gorgerous masterpiece.

Escrito originalmente por Oblivion:

Escrito originalmente por Applesmacked:

there are mods that fix this already

Yes there are but you go no archievent or if you want them you must use F4SE and it´s broke every update :/

Thats not true in the slightest. There is an achievement mod that doesnt even use the script extender and works independent of game version and dlc. http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/15639/?tab=1&navtag=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nexusmods.com%2Ffallout4%2Fajax%2Fmoddescription%2F%3Fid%3D15639%26preview%3D&pUp=1