OR gate - BUG or just my mistake? (solved)

[Rusty1202]

My OR gate reacts like an AND gate, i think. It should give an output if one of the inputs is 1 or both are, but it doesn't.

both inputs are 1:
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/268343745576639450/6B3706222A145CBE97EA63038D2AE2D9A1EEE3E9/
just fine

one input is 1:
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/268343745576638924/51A5FF2BEE9198A9A06AE963AC8B09D5FED451E3/
no output

and the other one:
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/268343745576638391/450DAFBC3D0F60D1F2F83A61838DE3D2D743B680/
the same, no output

I hope someone can help

[Incunabulum]

It should - but that would be expecting BGS to genuinely understand how logic gates work and why an OR is an OR and an AND is an AND.

OR gate

A B Output
0 0 0
0 1 1
1 0 1
1 1 1

AND Gate

0 0 0
0 1 0
1 0 0
1 1 1

What they've got there is acting like an XOR gate - output 1 only if one input *or* the other is 1 vice a normal OR gate (output one if either input A or input B is one)

Keep in mind that these are the same people who don't understand what the lever on a bolt is - and so you get bolt handles on the left side of weapons designed for a right handed user. That's . . . firearms 010 and should be obvious to anyone who looks at pictures of guns (like an artist designing firearms).

[Mio Rin]

The issue might be the second wire on the red pin confusing the logic engine.
Otherwise, here's BigWiki's page with some tables on how logic gates should work:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_gate
It might help a bit. :)

[mfree]

Inputs on these things are wierd... what are you coming from and going to?

You may need to 'buffer' each input and output with an AND gate hooked 1 input to direct power, and 1 input to the line you want to feed to the OR gate.

I think it stems from the gates being input-powered, NAND can outright fail because of this (output low when table demands high), because there's no high input>>>no power to gate)

The red power sign is an indication that the gate's not handling input or output power correctly.

[Incunabulum]

Originally posted by mfree:

Inputs on these things are wierd... what are you coming from and going to?

You may need to 'buffer' each input and output with an AND gate hooked 1 input to direct power, and 1 input to the line you want to feed to the OR gate.

I think it stems from the gates being input-powered, NAND can outright fail because of this (output low when table demands high), because there's no high input>>>no power to gate)

The red power sign is an indication that the gate's not handling input or output power correctly.

The red power sign is an indication that the gate is outputting a 0 (no power). Its green when it outputs a 1 (power). Its not an indication that the gate is not handling input or output correctly - beyond the fact that an OR gate with a single 1 input should output a 1 and its not doing that.

IRL there are hardware issues that have to be dealt with - you need enough power input to register as a one and there are power draws for the gate itself - but the game doesn't have that. There's 'on' and there's 'off'. A single 'on' input should be enough for a full-power 'on' output.

Its described as 'transmits power if any input has power' which is correct - just not what its doing.

It is, IMO, simply coded wrong. Its acting like a different type of gate.

[Incunabulum]

It looks like the operations are hardcoded and not accessible to the CK. I can see which ones each gate has and can change the ones a gate uses but I can't get at the underlying script to see what its *written* to do.

Do me a favor, hook up a XOR gate and see what it outputs. Hopefully it works like an OR gate is supposed to, and if so its an easy fix to swap out the functions.

[tulle040657]

Originally posted by Incunabulum:

It looks like the operations are hardcoded and not accessible to the CK. I can see which ones each gate has and can change the ones a gate uses but I can't get at the underlying script to see what its *written* to do.

Do me a favor, hook up a XOR gate and see what it outputs. Hopefully it works like an OR gate is supposed to, and if so its an easy fix to swap out the functions.

having used an xor to make a powerd door with a button on the inside and outside that will open and close the door. I can tell you the xor gate works like a xor gate

[Spocks Toupee]

Originally posted by tulle040657:

having used an xor to make a powerd door with a button on the inside and outside that will open and close the door. I can tell you the xor gate works like a xor gate

Screw that, I just use the "Autodoors" mod

It has a sensor that opens the door when you approach it, and a "door closer" that closes the door after you go through it.

It can also be fitted with a proximity sensor to lock the door if enemies get too close to it during a settlement raid

[tulle040657]

Originally posted by Spocks Toupee:

Originally posted by tulle040657:

having used an xor to make a powerd door with a button on the inside and outside that will open and close the door. I can tell you the xor gate works like a xor gate

Screw that, I just use the "Autodoors" mod

It has a sensor that opens the door when you approach it, and a "door closer" that closes the door after you go through it.

It can also be fitted with a proximity sensor to lock the door if enemies get too close to it during a settlement raid

well I can beat that, my door and wall is just sitting out in the open and you can just walk around it if you want....

dude I was not making any claims as it being the best or even a good way to do it. I just knew the answer to the guys question and answered it

[mfree]

Originally posted by Incunabulum:

It looks like the operations are hardcoded and not accessible to the CK. I can see which ones each gate has and can change the ones a gate uses but I can't get at the underlying script to see what its *written* to do.

Do me a favor, hook up a XOR gate and see what it outputs. Hopefully it works like an OR gate is supposed to, and if so its an easy fix to swap out the functions.

That's what I got too, a tie to actor value 00000338 and no refs but a 'may be hardcoded'.

I'm surprised a XOR gate worked for you, since there's an explicit warning in the tutorial message that the inverted gates have to be fed from another gate.

The issue I brought up with the input-powered gates shows up most of all with NAND, since all low inputs are supposed to result in a high output... but it *can't*, because all the power to the gate has been removed. Try that yourself, NAND is 'broken'.

If your gate only gets power from it's inputs, and there's supposed to be a high output with all low inputs (i.e. off), where does it get the power to output high? That's a pretty fundamental flaw, these gates should all either take radiated power or have a separate power input instead of relying on the DATA inputs for power.

[tulle040657]

Originally posted by mfree:

Originally posted by Incunabulum:

It looks like the operations are hardcoded and not accessible to the CK. I can see which ones each gate has and can change the ones a gate uses but I can't get at the underlying script to see what its *written* to do.

Do me a favor, hook up a XOR gate and see what it outputs. Hopefully it works like an OR gate is supposed to, and if so its an easy fix to swap out the functions.

That's what I got too, a tie to actor value 00000338 and no refs but a 'may be hardcoded'.

I'm surprised a XOR gate worked for you, since there's an explicit warning in the tutorial message that the inverted gates have to be fed from another gate.

The issue I brought up with the input-powered gates shows up most of all with NAND, since all low inputs are supposed to result in a high output... but it *can't*, because all the power to the gate has been removed. Try that yourself, NAND is 'broken'.

If your gate only gets power from it's inputs, and there's supposed to be a high output with all low inputs (i.e. off), where does it get the power to output high? That's a pretty fundamental flaw, these gates should all either take radiated power or have a separate power input instead of relying on the DATA inputs for power.

XOR is not an inverted gate.

[Rusty1202]

Originally posted by Incunabulum:

Originally posted by mfree:

Inputs on these things are wierd... what are you coming from and going to?

You may need to 'buffer' each input and output with an AND gate hooked 1 input to direct power, and 1 input to the line you want to feed to the OR gate.

I think it stems from the gates being input-powered, NAND can outright fail because of this (output low when table demands high), because there's no high input>>>no power to gate)

The red power sign is an indication that the gate's not handling input or output power correctly.

The red power sign is an indication that the gate is outputting a 0 (no power). Its green when it outputs a 1 (power). Its not an indication that the gate is not handling input or output correctly - beyond the fact that an OR gate with a single 1 input should output a 1 and its not doing that.

IRL there are hardware issues that have to be dealt with - you need enough power input to register as a one and there are power draws for the gate itself - but the game doesn't have that. There's 'on' and there's 'off'. A single 'on' input should be enough for a full-power 'on' output.

Its described as 'transmits power if any input has power' which is correct - just not what its doing.

It is, IMO, simply coded wrong. Its acting like a different type of gate.

Thanks for your help!

I used the new switches coming with the dlc:
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/268343745576977088/BA177E5DC864F52692D7D0C40F32668958E4EE69/

With buffing it worked fine:
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/268343745576975846/9913BE28AAEBF9E67796F49383870143208FFF02/

I tested a little bit and with the old switches the OR gate worked correctly without any AND gate buffers:
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/268343745576976726/6FB810B1CA8E393A4ED9668E5126FF75F07EBBAC/
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/268343745576976277/5DDEE867FC2457F885DE0788E7264FC8D36B190E/

So perhaps the new switch causes some issues

[mfree]

Originally posted by tulle040657:

XOR is not an inverted gate.

*smacks forehead* I'm no longer surprised at your success, and am now wondering why I lumped XOR in with the list of inverted gates....

[tulle040657]

Originally posted by Rusty1202:

Originally posted by Incunabulum:

The red power sign is an indication that the gate is outputting a 0 (no power). Its green when it outputs a 1 (power). Its not an indication that the gate is not handling input or output correctly - beyond the fact that an OR gate with a single 1 input should output a 1 and its not doing that.

IRL there are hardware issues that have to be dealt with - you need enough power input to register as a one and there are power draws for the gate itself - but the game doesn't have that. There's 'on' and there's 'off'. A single 'on' input should be enough for a full-power 'on' output.

Its described as 'transmits power if any input has power' which is correct - just not what its doing.

It is, IMO, simply coded wrong. Its acting like a different type of gate.

Thanks for your help!

I used the new switches coming with the dlc:
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/268343745576977088/BA177E5DC864F52692D7D0C40F32668958E4EE69/

With buffing it worked fine:
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/268343745576975846/9913BE28AAEBF9E67796F49383870143208FFF02/

I tested a little bit and with the old switches the OR gate worked correctly without any AND gate buffers:
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/268343745576976726/6FB810B1CA8E393A4ED9668E5126FF75F07EBBAC/
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/268343745576976277/5DDEE867FC2457F885DE0788E7264FC8D36B190E/

So perhaps the new switch causes some issues

hmmm I used the old switches on my door......ok be back later gonna run some tests

[tulle040657]

Originally posted by mfree:

Originally posted by tulle040657:

XOR is not an inverted gate.

*smacks forehead* I'm no longer surprised at your success, and am now wondering why I lumped XOR in with the list of inverted gates....

well at least it makes me feel better about the rectifier bridge thing ;)

[mfree]

The new DLC switches I haven't played with yet, but I was under the impression that they were included specifically for the door situation... even though they should work like a regular switch.

talking about the conduit switches, right? So you had switch>conduit>conduit wire connector>gate?

EDIT: and the funny thing about the rectifier bridge, I was just thinking about that, and really all you'd need is an AND switch... all you're doing with the bridge is 'blending' two signals, and an AND is going to have a high output any time one output is high, so the end result is the same.

Which leads me to an idea for feeding two complementing pulse switch outputs into an AND and seeing how the result sounds from a powered speaker....