Explosive Vs. Wounding, the math : Survival edition

[Casper]

So.. having just been fortunate enough to come across a wounding laser rifle in survival I've asked myself, in a mode where ammunition is weighted and everyone is dying quicker. which would be better/the most practical? An explosive shotgun or a wounding auto scattergun?

So I went ahead and math'd the stats of the effects. excluding the base damage (as that scales how you build)

Disclaimer:
- weights etc are subject to change and are always approximate, therefore the results of the following calculations are only meant to be considered generally.
- If any info is wrong, ie. Pellet number etc please mention it and I’ll update the calculations.

The damage per pound calculation includes weight of weapon because weight counts more than ever as an important resource to the player in survival mode, seeing as the more room you have to store supplies and loot generally the better off you are, therefore a lighter weapon is more resourceful in weight, except usually this is balanced with lower damage.
In my opinion the best weapons in survival need the best balance between damage and efficiency, for example while an explosive Gatling gun will destroy almost anything instantly the weight of weapon and ammunition make it highly impractical.

(if you want to skip the math, discussion is 3rd paragraph from the bottom)

One of the few stats unmentioned in the profiles that relates to resourcefulness is price of ammunition, which I feel is balanced. While shells might be cheaper from vendors cells are arguably more commonly found around the wasteland.
So here’s the math.

Explosive Combat Shotgun:

Accuracy/range: inferior (55:41)
Weight (modded): 22 pounds
Projectiles per .100p (1 shell): 8
Projectile effect damage: 30 (demo expert 4)
Projectile effect damage per ammo: (seen below)
Effect Damage per .100p of ammo: 30 X 8 X 3* (estimated body parts hit by each pellet): 720
Effect Damage per pound (weapon = damage per pound of ammo [.1 X 10] / weapon weight): 327.27
Attributes: Each projectile can 'hit' (inflict 30 damage) multiple body parts as well as multiple targets. Close proximity can harm/kill the player and cripple limbs, requiring healing with stim packs and optionally water. Also, full effectiveness requires perception 5 and 4 perk points in demolition expert.
IN VATS: my level 92 (not really lacking in AP) gets 4 shots of this (1 shell per shot) per bar of AP
Effect damage per AP bar (damage per ammo X ammo used per AP bar): 720 X 4 = 2880

Wounding auto Laser Scattergun:

Accuracy/range: superior (50:179)
Weight (modded): 7.3 pounds
Projectiles per .100p (3.57 fusion cells): 17.85
Projectile effect damage: 25 (no perks required)
Projectile effect damage per ammo (1 fusion cell): 25 X 5 = 125
Effect Damage per .100p of ammo (17.85 X 25) = 446.25
Effect Damage per pound (weapon = damage per pound of ammo [.1 X 10] / weapon weight): 611.3
Attributes: Bleed damage is dealt over time rather than on impact. Has no risk of harming the player.
IN VATS: 5 shots (3 ammo per ‘shot’ being automatic) per bar of AP = 15 ammo per AP bar
Effect damage per AP bar (damage per ammo X ammo used per AP bar): 125 X 15 = 1,857

What we can determine from the calculations is this:
The exploding combat shotgun does more damage in the time is would take to kill an enemy, hands down. (barely anything has health able to withstand 2880 damage per vats encounter before weapon damage)
However, it would appear that the wounding auto laser is almost twice as efficient in its dispersion of damage to weight, making it more weight efficient.
So we have one more set of calculations left, comparing and contrasting the two

Weapon Effect damage per AP bar: 2880/1857 = 1.55. the exploding combat shotgun does 1.6X (rounded) more damage
Weight-Effect damage efficiency: 611.3/327 = 1.86. The wounding laser is 1.9X (rounded) more weight efficient.

When comparing how much better they are in their respective strengths (1.6 vs 1.9) the wounding laser comes out in the lead by a small margin.
I would say however that since the numbers are subject to change this margin is too close to determine a clear victor, meaning that at the end of the day it comes down to taste.
Personally I prefer to be weight efficient but that’s me. In attributes as well, the risk of killing yourself with the explosive effect seems high for survival, where saving is a much rarer occurrence.

Which would you prefer?

[Hobo Misanthropus]

Doombringer eredeti hozzászólása:

iknowright1996 eredeti hozzászólása:

8 (pellet number of combat shotgun) times 30 (explosive damage per pellet) times 3 (estimated amount of body parts hit) =720. Run the numbers yourself, my math isn't wrong, perhaps it's more like 4 body parts per pellet, making the new result 960. That would be closer to your 'highly researched' number because I changed the equation, not because the math itself is bad.

You're only talking about damage. A fusion cell (1 shot for the scattergun) is 3.57 times lighter than a shotgun shell.. meaning to compare them fairly you have to multiply the bleed damage by 3.57 (the per .100p result). Additionally with a range of 174 it's really easy to hit targets with every beam at mid range.

Long story short you're comparing them 1 shot for 1 shot, which in itself completely ignores that shells and fusion cells are different ammunition with different weights.
Additionally I did argue that the explosive shotgun does more effect damage, at least 60% more, I only happened to make an observation that the scattergun outperforms in efficiency (90% more efficient) but that still means the shotgun does more effect damage. That was never being debated here. That's why it's the better weapon out of survival, when ammo weight isn't a think. -__-

I HAVE TESTED THIS IN GAME.
I'm not theory crafting, I telling you what happens when you actually use this in game.
Seriously.

Here is a breakdown:
Advanced Combat Shotgun: 8 pellets (other receivers shoot 7 pellets)
Explosive Legendary Mod: 15 damage/pellet
Rifleman 5: x2 damage
Demolitions 4: x2 damage
Guns&Ammo 10: x1.5 damage
Bloody Mess 4: x1.2 damage
Explosive Bobblehead: x1.15 damage
All multipliers multiply each other, so:
8 x 15 x 2 x 2 x 1.5 x 1.2 x 1.15 = 993.6 damage - (in game it actually does 991.875)

You do almost 1k damage shooting the ground next to the target! (no pellets even coming close to hitting - walking up to the target, turning my back to him, then aiming straight down), and even more when you hit ;)

I don't know how a weapon that does 212.75 damage + 125 over 5sec and takes 35 action points is 'more efficeint' than one that does 250.125 + 991.875 and takes 36.75 action points...
Yes, I know the ammo weighs ~3.6x as much, but it actually kills stuff (even if you miss).

Again - I have tested this all in game, not theory crafted on a forum.

Also about splash damage - metal/robot armor lets you put dense mods on limbs instead of just the chest, so you can use a dense metal/robot limb (50% explosive damage reduction) and padded mod on any torso (25% explosive damage reduction) and they will stack (additively - 75%). With armor added on top the splash is not a big deal.

You're wrong about the splash not being a big deal. Even with 75% Damage reduction, it'll be a 1shot kill if you're too close. See, Your own explosives ignore your armor rating, dealing damage straight through any layer of defense you have, except for the special dense/padded effects.

Test it with a Grenade, hit yourself with 0 Armor, then hit yourself with full power armor (No explosive shielding) and see.

Otherwise, to compute efficiency in real-world encounters, you're going to have to factor in how often that shotgun is going to be dealing Overkill damage, which is basically wasted overhead if you're trying to keep your weight down.

All things considered, I'm going to say the Bleeding Scattered Laser Rifle is going to be your more effecient solution. The chief advantage of the Combat Shotgun with Explosive damage is that, while the pellets lose lethality quickly, the explosive damage itself does not.

[Doombringer]

Hobo Misanthropus eredeti hozzászólása:

You're wrong about the splash not being a big deal. Even with 75% Damage reduction, it'll be a 1shot kill if you're too close. See, Your own explosives ignore your armor rating, dealing damage straight through any layer of defense you have, except for the special dense/padded effects.

Test it with a Grenade, hit yourself with 0 Armor, then hit yourself with full power armor (No explosive shielding) and see.

I have tested it... with a 5.2k damage nuke, aimed right at my feet.
Dense+Padded both add perks, and they reduced damage from 5.2k to 1666 damage (and my character survived).

EDIT
Raw data from maxed explosive shotgun (crouching and aiming straight down):
0 damageresist --> 694.3 damage taken
77 damageresist + 75% explosive damage reduction --> 116.6 damage taken
384 damageresist + 75% explosive damage reduction --> 96.57 damage taken
Note that I have Rifleman 5, so there is a good chance it ignores 30% of armor.

[Hobo Misanthropus]

Doombringer eredeti hozzászólása:

Hobo Misanthropus eredeti hozzászólása:

You're wrong about the splash not being a big deal. Even with 75% Damage reduction, it'll be a 1shot kill if you're too close. See, Your own explosives ignore your armor rating, dealing damage straight through any layer of defense you have, except for the special dense/padded effects.

Test it with a Grenade, hit yourself with 0 Armor, then hit yourself with full power armor (No explosive shielding) and see.

I have tested it... with a 5.2k damage nuke, aimed right at my feet.
Dense+Padded both add perks, and they reduced damage from 5.2k to 1666 damage (and my character survived).

Read what I wrote, Dense+Padded works, Armor Rating does not.

You also now have to factor in a heavier set of armor too, by the way.

[Tensa!]

Is there really a wounding/burning effect applied per hit? I always had the impression that another hit just resets the effect.

[Hobo Misanthropus]

O'Field eredeti hozzászólása:

Is there really a wounding/burning effect applied per hit? I always had the impression that another hit just resets the effect.

No, that's incendiary effect that resets. Bleed stacks, it's what makes it one of the better buffs, but not really as broken as say... Explosive. Ideal for shotguns and Automatics.

I kind of wish Bleeding was calculated against Poison resist though. It should be, because in Theory the poison damage effect is stronger (And stacks too) but a lot of things resist.

It's kind of weird having Robots bleed to death.

[Casper]

O'Field eredeti hozzászólása:

Is there really a wounding/burning effect applied per hit? I always had the impression that another hit just resets the effect.

It stacks.. or a wounding plasma caster wouldn't have that 'melting you like butter' effect on legendary albino deathclaws after 25 ammo (my own test)

[Doombringer]

Hobo Misanthropus eredeti hozzászólása:

stuff

I put raw data in previous post, armor works but doesn't make a big difference.

Carrying one robot/metal limb doesn't make that big a difference to overall weight. 220/220 resist come from ballistic weave clothes/hat which weigh almost nothing.

It isn't like you try to splash yourself, but if it happens it generally isn't going to kill you.

[Hobo Misanthropus]

Doombringer eredeti hozzászólása:

Hobo Misanthropus eredeti hozzászólása:

stuff

I put raw data in previous post, armor works but doesn't make a big difference.

"Doesn't make a big difference"

The Armor has a mathematical break point we know, and this is how I tested it.

151 Armor Vs 151 Frag Grenade on my feet. 151 Damage, when it should be 76 (or 75?)

Enemy exploves do account for armor though, which is what's weird.

And of course, having over 1,000 armor against a 151 Frag Grenade thanks to T60 Power ARmor results in the exact same amount of damage. More if you have padded armor on.

It could be the Fatman is different though, as it's a Big Gun as well? I didn't consider that, I was using raw explosives (Mines, Grenades, and Explosive backslplash from an Explosive Pipe Rifle)

It could be the reason your damage reductions from AR are insignificant could be then, because I am pretty sure, like every Bethesda game, there is some hard-cap for the % Reduction, and with full Dense armor, you gotta be near it already. (Typically it's 80%)

Edit: Oh, this is with Explosive shotgun. I'm pretty sure it's not ignoring Armor by the way. That's only going to be on pellet impact.

[Doombringer]

Hobo Misanthropus eredeti hozzászólása:

Doombringer eredeti hozzászólása:

I put raw data in previous post, armor works but doesn't make a big difference.

"Doesn't make a big difference"

The Armor has a mathematical break point we know, and this is how I tested it.

151 Armor Vs 151 Frag Grenade on my feet. 151 Damage, when it should be 76 (or 75?)

Enemy exploves do account for armor though, which is what's weird.

And of course, having over 1,000 armor against a 151 Frag Grenade thanks to T60 Power ARmor results in the exact same amount of damage. More if you have padded armor on.

It could be the Fatman is different though, as it's a Big Gun as well? I didn't consider that, I was using raw explosives (Mines, Grenades, and Explosive backslplash from an Explosive Pipe Rifle)

It could be the reason your damage reductions from AR are insignificant could be then, because I am pretty sure, like every Bethesda game, there is some hard-cap for the % Reduction, and with full Dense armor, you gotta be near it already. (Typically it's 80%)

I'm testing an explosive shotgun, not grenades. Armor does affect the explosive shotgun.

DR is hard capped at 95%, you need armor = 550x attack damage to hit the cap though.
(If your resist = 1000000+ you get 100% DR)

[Hobo Misanthropus]

If you're playing on Survival, shouldn't you be taking 3x damage, not just 2x? You said naked COmbat Shotgun explosion was doin like 640 right? That's only 2x what the base math says it should be.

[Golfbag Mansampler]

This thread just broke the Nerd Meter, and now we have to order a new one.

Good job, neer-do-wells.

[Hobo Misanthropus]

Silence eredeti hozzászólása:

This thread just broke the Nerd Meter, and now we have to order a new one.

Good job, neer-do-wells.

There's a reason STEM pays more than retail.

[Doombringer]

Hobo Misanthropus eredeti hozzászólása:

If you're playing on Survival, shouldn't you be taking 3x damage, not just 2x? You said naked COmbat Shotgun explosion was doin like 640 right? That's only 2x what the base math says it should be.

Testing on normal, can test on survival though.

Survival
2777 damage --> without dense+padded 0 damageresist (lol)
637 damage --> Dense+Padded 77 damageresist
527 damage --> Dense+Padded 384 damageresist

[Hobo Misanthropus]

Doombringer eredeti hozzászólása:

Hobo Misanthropus eredeti hozzászólása:

If you're playing on Survival, shouldn't you be taking 3x damage, not just 2x? You said naked COmbat Shotgun explosion was doin like 640 right? That's only 2x what the base math says it should be.

Testing on normal, can test on survival though.

Oh wow, that's awfully high then for Normal isn't it? Shouldn't it only be 8x34?

I'll admit, stuff dies just fine with non-legendary weapons, so I am only asking out of morbid curiosity, and not really basing anything I do off it, lol.

[Casper]

Doombringer eredeti hozzászólása:

Hobo Misanthropus eredeti hozzászólása:

If you're playing on Survival, shouldn't you be taking 3x damage, not just 2x? You said naked COmbat Shotgun explosion was doin like 640 right? That's only 2x what the base math says it should be.

Testing on normal, can test on survival though.

Seeing as that's what this thread's referring to that'd be a good start.. that's why my testing has been done in

Edit: the numbers scale with difficulty my concern was with the ratios in comparison between the two