Mysterious stranger after consecitive shots or last one?

[ScRuFFY]

For example, targeting an enemy multiple times with vats, will he appear during random intervals of the shots or during the final shot. Just a question about the perk...

[ErzPaladin]

Publicado originalmente por The Inept European:

The damage done is around 1000 DMG.

On my tests I used ammo as a counter, not time. More accurate. I counted MS procs by the icon coming up, then when I was done I just counted how much ammo I had expended. Having written down the starting quantity. Hits and misses don't matter. So it's just simple division for an accurate value. The more bullets you fire the more accurate the calculation is.

Having said that my initial 20-25% proc rate declined to nearer the 10% mark stated by the wiki for rank 1.

I agree it's a PITA to keep clicking VATS on and off, particularly if you are being swarmed at close range or otherwise facing a lot of simultaneous threats you need to deal with fast.

I don't care that much. I'm looting while I'm grinding (at least what's in front of me...) - that includes ammo, too. I'm doing this in my free time, you know?--

First and foremost, it's about the size (scale / dimensioning):

You can't deny that shooting 500 bullets within 2 hours (aka 7200 secs.) is kinda nothing - means for each bullet I've more than 14 secs left to shoot. Let's say... you take for every bullet 5 secs on average ...and then you're having free time... then you'd still have 4700 secs. (ca. 78 mins.) left which you can spend for traveling, sleeping, whatever.
Mysterious Stranger just triggered 14 times, that's all. It's lame and unreliable. It's more realistic that it was more than 500 bullets. But even out of 500 bullets 14 successes is only 2,8%. Even 16 successes would just mean 3,2 % instead of 2,8%. Hell, even out of 250 bullets it would be only an activation rate of 5,6%!

see it from that view:

You're stating a ca. 10 times higher activation rate. That would almost mean 14 MS-activations out of 70 bullets on average (for a 20% activation rate) instead of 500 - if it would be a hom.ogeneous distribution. And that's not. The activation rate is pretty inhom.ogeneous. That's true. Same goes for other skills, but that's over-exaggerating.

If you don't want to believe me, test it by yourself. Everyone could test that for 2 hours by themselves. There's no way MS has a 20% activation rate. Not even with that "1-Shot per VATS"-method. Not even 10%!--

[The Inept European]

Publicado originalmente por ErzPaladin:

Not even 10%!--

Well it's stated at 10% in the wiki. Your test method isn't rigorous enough to convince me it's lower. My tests are more rigorous, but not extensive enough to convince me it's higher than 10%. To put it another way, I have not seen any data yet that proves the wiki wrong.

My main concern is whether the proc check is once per shot, or once per time you enter VATS.

[The Inept European]

Publicado originalmente por ErzPaladin:

. But even out of 500 bullets 14 successes is only 2,8%. Even 16 successes would just mean 3,2 % instead of 2,8%. Hell, even out of 250 bullets it would be only an activation rate of 5,6%!

If you are not counting your shots the "test" is pointless, you may as well just make up the proc rate out of your head.

[ErzPaladin]

Publicado originalmente por The Inept European:

Publicado originalmente por ErzPaladin:

. But even out of 500 bullets 14 successes is only 2,8%. Even 16 successes would just mean 3,2 % instead of 2,8%. Hell, even out of 250 bullets it would be only an activation rate of 5,6%!

If you are not counting your shots the "test" is pointless, you may as well just make up the proc rate out of your head.

Funny, I'm thinking the same about you.

[The Inept European]

Publicado originalmente por ErzPaladin:

Publicado originalmente por The Inept European:

If you are not counting your shots the "test" is pointless, you may as well just make up the proc rate out of your head.

Funny, I'm thinking the same about you.

Thinking what exactly?

I'm counting my shots. You're guessing how many you might have fired, with a huge variation of your guesses.

So I am calculating:

A known number (procs) divided by another known number (shots fired)

You are calculating (guesstimating, really);

A known number (procs) divided by a bunch of different widely varying guesses that you're not sure about.

[ErzPaladin]

Publicado originalmente por The Inept European:

Publicado originalmente por ErzPaladin:

Funny, I'm thinking the same about you.

Thinking what exactly?

I'm counting my shots. You're guessing how many you might have fired, with a huge variation of your guesses.

So I am calculating:

A known number (procs) divided by another known number (shots fired)

You are calculating (guesstimating, really);

A known number (procs) divided by a bunch of different widely varying guesses that you're not sure about.

yeah well, we've no proof for this, either. Haven't seen a single number / calculation from your side. But then again... could be made in your head, either.

[Bored Peon]

Two tests.
Twenty shots in each.
(I suggest a low damage pistol since damage does not matter, only the action.)

Test 1
Do twenty shots in VATS, stay in VATS as much as possible.
Count the number of appearances.

Test 2
Do twenty shots, single shot, entering/exiting VATS.
Count the number of appearances.

[DouglasGrave]

The Creation Kit handles some of its perk activity with a quest called "PerksQuest". A couple of stages in it are for the Mysterious Stranger ranks 2 and 3. They alter a global value called "VATSStrangerOdds", setting its value to 0.12 and 0.14 respectively. I didn't see exactly where this is used, so I can't say if Luck is added anywhere, but I guess you could set it sky-high and see if it makes any obvious difference.

The refill on hit chance for rank 3 looks to be 25% (or 50% with the extra rank added by the Nuka World DLC).

EDIT: Checking in-game, VATSStrangerOdds is set to 0.10 by default, and taking the first rank of the perk doesn't change this. The fourth perk rank doesn't raise it beyond the 0.14 of the third rank.

[DouglasGrave]

Massively elevating Luck (around 4000) didn't seem to make any difference, and I noted that firing, but not hitting, seemed required to trigger the effect (so no targeting and cancelling).

I fired 16-shot (the limit) VATS volleys at a spawn Disciples Survivalist and I never saw a trigger on intermediate shots in ten volleys.

[ErzPaladin]

Publicado originalmente por Bored Peon:

Two tests.
Twenty shots in each.
(I suggest a low damage pistol since damage does not matter, only the action.)

Test 1
Do twenty shots in VATS, stay in VATS as much as possible.
Count the number of appearances.

Test 2
Do twenty shots, single shot, entering/exiting VATS.
Count the number of appearances.

That's a crappy test. Within my last try I've used 420 bullets within 2 hours and MS only appeared 9 times. In the test before it even appeared 16 times in the same time interval and it's still unclear where the minimum and where the maximum lies, cause that would afford a testing of hundreds if not thousands of hours.

average MS-Interval = 420 : (9-1) = 52,5 (bullets between 2 MS-Activations)
average t-Interval = 7200 : (9-1) = 900 secs (time between 2 activations)

*note: "9-1" is closer to the real value, than "9", cause MS triggered 9 times, but you're counting the intervals between those "points".

Best would be to start counting bullets between the 1st and 2nd MS till the last one, if you want to be correct, even though the relative error is minimal in such a long testing period.

activation rate = (9/420)*100% = ca. 2,1 %

The real average MS-Interval is still unclear. In this test it lied by 52,5 bullets. It's still unclear how inhomo.geneous the value-distribution is.
For example: the previous test was 14 activations out of 500 single VATS-shots --> 500 : (14-1) = 38,5. That's far closer to a 30s-interval than a 60s.

It also means: you need to test at least for 60 single VATS-shots in a row, that you can guarantee a single activation of MS. In the worst case the activation can still lie outside of 60 shots, if the distribution is more random / inhom.ogeneous than awaited. 20 Shots is way too short.

Also? What shall this test-setup proof? Whether everyone can see the interval by themselves? Like...

Test 1:

Do 60 shots with the "single shot per VATS"-method and count the appearing MS-activations.
...and repeat it at least 20 times (on a single value you don't see anything else!)

Test 2:

Do 60 shots "while emptying your AP completely within VATS each time"... and then count the appearing MS-activations. ...and repeat it at least 20 times (like above)

----> At best you can only guarantee by that, if 20-30 more players are testing this positive, that the interval lies in a range, where it's already predicted.

That's not much different from shooting 400-600 bullets the "single shot-VATS"-way which took me 2 hours and which is still accurate-enough.

And till now... that inexperienced taxi driver hasn't thrown a single number and especially not a calculation for his claim.

------------

So no, the claim that in the formula stands a MS-modifier of 0,10 for rank 1 or so is irrelevent, if it doesn't trigger like that. And I tested it with rank 2. I orignally started with rank 4, but I wanted to test, whether rank 3 and 4 have a lower activation rate than rank 1-2, cause MS rank 3-4 can refill one crit-bar in addition.
But actually it seemed as if the rank of Mysterious Stranger doesn't even matter for the activation rate (all of this was already mentioned in the previous posts!)

And the accusion, that counting 2 hours in that test would be too inaccurate doesn't make much sense, either.

MS triggered 14 times within 2 hours --> equates 400-600 single shots in VATS on average.

on that example:

Activation Rate (out of 600 bullets) = (14 : 600) *100% = 2,3 %
Activation Rate (out of 500 bullets) = (14 : 500) *100% = 2,8 %
Activation Rate (out of 400 bullets) = (14 : 400) *100% = 3,5 %
Activation Rate (out of 300 bullets) = (14 : 300) *100% = 4,7 %
Activation Rate (out of 200 bullets) = (14 : 200) *100% = 7,0 %

Even on the worst example Mysterious Stranger never reached the 10% triggering chance. And by all means... it's ridiculous, claiming I couldn't shoot at least 400 bullets via Single Shot within VATS within 2 hours (= 7200 secs). Which is exactly what that inexperienced Taxi Driver did.

And that was the only example which spoke for him. On all other tests MS triggered lesser than 14 times within 2 hours. On the last it triggered 9 times out of 420 shots - and this time he can't claim it wasn't counted. That's a 2,1 % activation chance.

And if you don't trust me, then TEST IT!!! You're just looking into a formula without a deeper-digging test and accuse me that I'd imagine these numbers in my head. But for such an accusation nobody gets banned, huh? But I get a message I'd disregard the forum-rules. Yeah thx!>< (to the moderator, too)

[ErzPaladin]

Publicado originalmente por The Inept European:

Publicado originalmente por ErzPaladin:

. But even out of 500 bullets 14 successes is only 2,8%. Even 16 successes would just mean 3,2 % instead of 2,8%. Hell, even out of 250 bullets it would be only an activation rate of 5,6%!

If you are not counting your shots the "test" is pointless, you may as well just make up the proc rate out of your head.

[DouglasGrave]

Under the circumstances, I don't think you really need two separate tests to address the OP's original query. What you're attempting to do is see whether you can rule out the possibility of triggering earlier than the last shot when firing multiple shots in VATS. So you simply rigorously test multiple shots.

You just take a fast weapon, fire up to the maximum of 16 shots in a single VATS volley, and see if Mysterious Stranger ever triggers before the last shot. If he ever appears earlier than the last shot the question is answered.

Single shot tests would be better for testing the rate, unless we're proposing the rate changes based on the number of shots (which I don't think anyone has suggested).

[DouglasGrave]

I found an interesting twist while playing around with manually setting the VATSStrangerOdds to different values, especially when trying out melee punches, since using my fists seems to use a backwards-facing camera angle more often (melee can trigger it, to answer that question; melee weapons also worked).

More than a few times, the Stranger showed up without firing a single shot. When I set the global to 1, he did indeed seem to appear almost all the time when using melee punches, but there was no obvious change in how often he fired.

I got the impression with ranged shots that he wasn't even appearing as often, but in general, while the VATSStrangerOdds does seem to control him visibly appearing, it's like they either didn't connect that to the damaging effect, or the entire thing frequently bugs out and just doesn't work.

[DouglasGrave]

Seeing a suggestion elsewhere about the game possibly messing up trying to place the Mysterious Stranger on the same level as the target, I decided to make that as unlikely as possible.

Instead of spawning a target into Vault 88 with console commands (my previous test), I decided to use Grid World in VR and just spawn a synth target with one of its automatic markers. When VATSStrangerOdds was set to 1 this time, the Stranger appeared almost every single time. This does support the possibility that it's not a problem with the chance of the Stranger being triggered, but with his appearance and attack running properly.

In regard to the OP's query, even with a successful attack now being basically guaranteed, the Mysterious Stranger did not ever appear after any attack except the very last one in VATS.

[DouglasGrave]

Oh, and if you queue multiple shots, but cancel partway through, the Mysterious Stranger chance triggers at the point you cancel.